VV Trail Sign

[mttgilbert]

We found this trail sign while hiking in East Clear Creek:

There was an old road near it and some signs of campsites around it but it was in a fairly inaccessible location. Trail 108 is the West Fork of Oak Creek Trail, and "V V" is a ranch somewhere here in Arizona but I don't know where. This was the only sign we found in the canyon and there were no blazes to further define the trail. Any ideas?

HAZ VV Map

[chumley]

Well, I don't have any relevant info on the sign, but it seems to me that it was placed on that post AFTER having been shot three times. It is difficult to tell, but there doesn't appear to be any damage to the post behind the bullet holes. So, while it may simply have been re-posted at some point, its also possible that this sign wasn't always in this spot?

It is also possible that the sign reads 198, not 108. Do you have approximate coordinates of where this sign is? (I could run over to the ASU map collection during lunch and look on some old maps...)

[chumley]

OK, further details...

The VV Ranch is also called V-V and V-Bar-V ranch. They are all the same.

There's a petroglyph site at the ranch, and the Sedona Ranger district offers tours to it during very limited hours. You can google it and find photos from there. The ranch is now operated by the UofA. Its perimeter runs for 30 miles from Camp Verde eastward, with a "height" (north/south) of about 5 miles. I'm still interested in where the sign was located, but I'll also begin to look for any 108 or 198 trails in the area. It can't possibly refer to the West Fork trail.

Here's a general idea of where the the V-V Ranch Petroglyph site is ... Why there'd be a sign anywhere in East Clear Creek is a bit of a mystery to me. Sure you weren't in WEST Clear Creek?

[chumley]

Some more research... the east end of the ranch property is in Mahan Park, which is about 6 miles north of Clints Well, just west of Lake Mary Road (FH3). This is basically the upper reaches of Willow Valley. While this isn't the actual ranch, there are some ranch-owned buildings here, though I don't know how old they are. So, for a trail to get to this area from East Clear Creek, it would have to cross Hwy 87 and/or Lake Mary Road. Of course, either/both of those might have been a dirt road when this trail existed, so that might not be a big problem. Anybody know of any trails in the Clints Well area that might fit this description?

[mttgilbert]

I don't have access to maps right now but if you have a map of Blue Ridge Resevoir; find the sharp "S" curve just east of Dick Hart Draw (just east of the Dam). The sign was on creek right of the inside of the uppermost portion of the curve. I will post coordinates later when I have access to my map.

[chumley]

Well Matt- I don't know what to say. First, I'll start with "Thanks!" I've really enjoyed researching this, and since it's now the middle of Friday afternoon, I'm going to see if I can get through my entire workday without doing a single work-oriented task.

Assuming that the sign is where it's always been, its difficult to understand what the VV might indicate. I just don't see there being a sign down in that canyon for a ranch that's 15 miles away across several roads and past larger historic landmarks (Long Valley, Clints Well).

The current catalog of Coconino NF roads (open and closed) does not list any ROAD numbered either 108 or 198 anywhere near there. Forest Service maps that I found did not mark road/trail numbers before 1969, and there's no trails or roads in the area that fit the description either. There's also no other feature on maps which would explain the VV.

Even if there was a trail along the creek that led toward V Bar V Ranch BEFORE the dam was built, there's no sign of any such trail on early maps. Just for the history of it, I'm attaching a forest map of the area from 1939. Dotted lines are trails, lines with X are fences, and lines with • are telephone cables. While the roads are not labeled, there's nothing visually apparent that would make sense in relation to the sign's location and relation to the V Bar V Ranch. (The current location of the dam is just south of the Blue Ridge Lookout Tower, [now Moqui] indicated with a dark triangle in a circle.) The only trail on the map that crosses the canyon appears to be at Kinder Crossing. (Though I'm guessing that this trail marker is not quite as old as 1939...) The V Bar V Ranch extends to the area around Harris Park on this map.

So now my questions are more geared to what else the sign could mean.
1. Is the triangle shape indicative of something unique or does it mean something specific?
2. Could the VV stand for something else?
3. Could the 108/198 mean something else?
4. Could it be a marker designating something "right there" versus a sign directing to somewhere else?
etc.

So, in conclusion... Despite a little bit of effort on my part, I really don't know anything more than when I first read your question.

[wyandot]

Let me throw this into the mix. I saw a very similar sign two months ago on the Barbershop Trail. I wish I could remember the exact configuration or had a photo of it, but the VV caught my interest that day. The two V's were close enough together that I wondered if they were a W or two V's, and I stopped to examine to verify the two V's. I know it was triangular, but I don't remember if there was a number on it. The location was where the Barbershop trail takes a sharp left turn heading eastward just before dipping down into Yeager Canyon. This location is on the 1939 map that Chumley attached.

[big_load]

I apologize for not having looked at a map yet (I just got home from work), but mention of the Barbershop trail made me wonder if the sign marked right of way for the sheep drives.

[mttgilbert]

there were remnants of an old road in the canyon. Every now and then we came across an old double track that was just barely visible. We first noticed it around the sign and picked it up here and there until FR95 crossed the canyon. After that there was no sign of the track. We thought maybe the dam builders had a road in from 95, but I like the idea of a sheep drive better.

[chumley]

I like the sound of the sheep drive too, but it doesn't really make sense to me. Would there really have to be a sign indicating right-of-way on a remote canyon for an event that happens for a couple of days every year?

The dam building road seems possible, but the 1932 map doesn't even have FR95 on it. Though it may have been built during the construction of the dam. But the road to the dam (FR 751) should have been more than adequate to service the construction I would think.

I was thinking that the sign could be some kind of surveying marker used during construction, but the only thing that I came up with was that it appears that the sign is on or near the border between Township 13N and 14N. And that makes no sense with what the sign says.

So my question now would be to see if anybody else knows of other triangle-shaped signs, preferably with a similar style of markings. The use of the triangle sign can probably be traced to a government entity and specific time period. Anybody else seen similar signs or know anything about the history or use of the triangle sign?

[big_load]

I've seen triangular signs like that associated with utilities (buried pipelines, cables, etc) or utilities rights of way, but they're usually not so big.

[chumley]

According to Matt's description above, there's one sign located right about here (crosshair):
http://hikearizona.com/map.php?QX=4126

Wyandot indicates a location that is much less easily determined... except that I encountered the same sign. And geotagged it: http://hikearizona.com/photo.php?ZIP=199342

This one is smack in the middle of one of the squares. Doesn't align with any gridlines on topo or the official forest map.

[joebartels]

Scientific study area?

here are the 3 mapped http://hikearizona.com/map.php?QX=4128

[The_Eagle]

Beat me to the post - Labeled http://hikearizona.com/map.php?MY=14051&M=6

[chumley]

I'm pretty sure I have another photo or two I can dig up. Eventually. I know I've seen at least one more.

It looks like the "up" triangles have "VV" and a number and the down triangles (where they exist) have a "VVH" and a number?

Quick search shows that VVH is a surveying acronym for "Verified Vertical Horizontal". I don't see any surveying use of "Verfied Vertical" alone however.

Could be unrelated, but I figured it was worth mentioning. It seems that metal posts in the ground would be survey markers of some kind.

[chumley]

Three appear to be in the very bottom of a canyon. The one on the UBar trail near Yeager Canyon is not in the canyon bottom. The geotag may be off slightly, but it was taken 3 minutes before I reached the canyon bottom. So this one is a definite anomaly.

[Tough_Boots]

there is also one in Barbershop Canyon at the bottom. I can't dig up a picture of it, though. I'm pretty sure its within a mile south of the U-bar crossing.

[nonot]

I've seen some of these triangular yellow "VV" signs along ATV roads in the Sierra Anchas and up above West Clear Creek on the South side. I had just figured they were ATV trail markers?

[Grasshopper]

Reference:
More discussion on this topic against comments posted to this http://hikearizona.com/photo.php?ID=509788

[big_load]

This problem refuses to succumb to Google.