Red Rock Pass

mttgilbert · Post by **mttgilbert** » Jul 08 2003 3:26 pm

Whats the deal with the red rock pass. Does one need to be obtained ahead of time or can you get it once youre there? How much is it?

hikeaz · Post by **hikeaz** » Jul 08 2003 3:51 pm

Matt,
They're $5.00 a day and are required for parking or "recreation" on National Forest Lands in and around Sedona.
(BUT, re. West Fork... if entered from the Flagstaff end (Woody Mountain Rd.) there is no fee.)
They are available at most trailheads (electronic kiosk > 40% goes to the kiosk Co.) and some of the small stores in Sedona, as well as the Nat'l Forest office.
BUT UNDERSTAND
Disney, AMFAC and the like are behind the Red Rock Pass, and want to privatize and "improve" the visitor "experience"at National Parks. (that's sure to save us $, huh ?) Read Starbucks and Juice Bars at Slide Rock, etc.
The "powers-that-be" take your payment as a vote "for" that system.

READ THIS > http://www.redrockreview.com/no_fees2.html

AND THIS > http://www.aznofee.org/aznofee/news.php

for more telling data.

Kurt

mttgilbert · Post by **mttgilbert** » Jul 08 2003 7:50 pm

Thanks for the info, I have often rallied for the no fee cause.

By the way, nice ID picture, very appropriate.

joebartels · Post by **joebartels** » Jul 08 2003 8:13 pm

the fee doesn't bother me

$5 for clean trails is a drop in the bucket

yes I've read all info on how only 0.0000001% goes to the cause

gripe until your blue, but it works

you take one step outta the fee area and it's trashed (go see Bell Trail)

"ya but thats a popular water hole"

Red Rock Crossing is more popular, it's not trashed

Slide Rock is packed, so yeah it's even more then $5 it's $7 like West Fork

these forest don't clean themselves

Sedona - Fee - Clean
Payson - Free - Garbage

I'm not big on fees either but when you oppose please provide the solution

joebartels · Post by **joebartels** » Jul 08 2003 8:15 pm

whoa that dude needs to chill out

mttgilbert · Post by **mttgilbert** » Jul 08 2003 10:05 pm

Fees may keep some areas clean, not by virtue of weeding out the offensive litterbug, but by providing the necessary manpower to keep the given area clean. I personally don't feel that other people trashing an area is justification to charge me to clean up after them. As far as I am concerned all this comes down to is double-dipping, the government collects taxes from us, some of that is alloted to maintain these forest areas. Then over and above what they have already taken they insist on more, all to access the lands we theoretically own.

I can understand your frustration Joe, many a time have fee programs been knocked without the slightest hint of a replacement plan. What it all comes down to is that the forest service needs more money to patrol, clean and maintain areas that are abused. I don't feel that charging primarily responsible, non-offending users a fee is the right answer. The answer is to charge the offenders, and charge them heavily. Littering the high-way carries a hefty fine. Why shouldn't littering the trail? If there were rangers patrolling the trails, (I have never seen a ranger on a trail, only hanging around the trailhead or the occasional rangers who have set up off-trail observation posts) and issuing hefty tickets to litterbugs, I believe the funds would be found to better maintain heavily used and abused areas.

The forest service already has some systems in place that are fee-free and have been a great success in cleaning up trouble areas. I don't know if anyone is familiar with Bulldog Canyon in the Goldfield mountains. It is an off-road area that was heavily abused by OHVs and target shooters. Rather than charge a fee to access the area they set up a free permit system. The permits are available to anyone who asks, with the permit comes access to the park and the trails approved for use. There are often rangers who pass through the area and I have seen them issuing tickets several times. since the institution of the permit system the area has made a remarkable turn for the better. Many of the old trails have been shut down and are re-vegitating. A lot of the target shooters have relocated and, though the shell casings remain, the constant pops of gunfire have almost ceased to exist. Moreover most of the trash that was hauled in to be shot at (water-heaters, mattresses, refrigerators etc) has since been hauled out. I know this does't directly translate to hiking trails, but it is an example of a forest service program that fulfills the desires of both the agency and the users. Surely a similar method of enforcement could be applied to hiking.

In the end, if its the difference between hiking and going home I'll fork over the fee (Im not that principled)

(sorry to post so much, so off topic, but hey you were askin' for it

)

CindyC · Post by **CindyC** » Jul 08 2003 10:27 pm

I quit whining and bought a yearly Red Rock Pass. I agree with Joe. Of course I hate fees but what is the solution

: If you enter West Fork by the Call of the Canyon the Red Rock Pass is not needed but there is a daily usage fee.

mttgilbert · Post by **mttgilbert** » Jul 08 2003 10:48 pm

All whining and griping aside. Do I need to get the pass in advance or can I get it when I get up there frinday night?

joebartels · Post by **joebartels** » Jul 08 2003 11:03 pm

I think this was in reference to West Fork

You don't need a Red Rock Pass

It's "Call of the Canyon" entrance fee instead $7

you can get it anytime, if the attendant isn't there you put it in an envelope

-------------------------

be careful man, thunderstorms are forecasted to be breaking out there this weekend

CindyC · Post by **CindyC** » Jul 09 2003 7:07 am

If you are staying overnight and you self pay, don't forget you need to pay for 2 days.

Glitter · Post by **Glitter** » Jul 09 2003 7:22 am

How much is the yearly pass? When does it expire?

mttgilbert · Post by **mttgilbert** » Jul 09 2003 8:19 am

Is the trailhead parking area fairly secure, or should I plan on anything not strapped down being stolen out of my jeep?

Yahoo weather shows mostly sunny, today through next monday, so hopefully we'll be ok, otherwise wish us luck heading to high ground.

sherileeaz · Post by **sherileeaz** » Jul 09 2003 9:00 am

Matt, my son, ;)

I wrote about this in the West Fork hike description, here is a copy of what I found out:

If you do alot of hiking in the Red Rock area, I'd recommend purchasing either the Grand Red Rock Pass for $40 which is valid for 12 consecutive months plus unlimited access to RRM sites: Banjo Bill, Crescent Moon, Call of the Canyon, and Grasshopper Point. Or you can purchase an Annual Red Rock Pass for $20 which is good for 12 consecutive months but does not include the RRM sites which are $7 each. A Red Rock weekly pass is $15 and a daily pass is $5. Again, this does not include RRM sites.

Hope this helps,

MOM (Sherileeaz)

Glitter · Post by **Glitter** » Jul 09 2003 9:13 am

Thanks sherileeaz, I think I'll get the yearly.

Daryl · Post by **Daryl** » Jul 09 2003 11:12 am

I agree with Matt and Joe. In principal, paying fees to walk on land I already pay taxes for isn't right. However, morons are cheap and lazy. If you charge a fee to get in or you can't drive to within 100 yards of it, the mullet headed knuckle dragging bottom feeders that leave trash all over the place (AKA morons) stay away. Thus I'd rather pay a fee and avoid the morons.

Back on the real topic... I go hiking in Sedona 3-5 times a year, thus I'm right on the border of being better off buying the annual or daily pass. I talked to a ranger about this once and I don't remember exactly what the deal was, but if you buy a few day passes and then get the annual pass, they can knock the price you paid for the day pass off of the price of the annual pass. or something like that...

olesma · Post by **olesma** » Jul 09 2003 12:30 pm

Daryl wrote:mullet headed knuckle dragging bottom feeders

Isn't it nice how Daryl can so easily hide his real feelings? To the untrained eye you would think Daryl liked, or at least tolerated, these people - but to the skilled observer we can reach deep into the text and extract what his true feelings are....

C'mon Daryl - you can do better next time. Let's see some real invective - some honest to goodnes vitriol and bile next time....

By the way - you forgot mouth-breathers, inbred, wife-beater wearing, shifty-eyed, red-necked, beer-swilling, dog-beating, cactus-shooting, and "IQ = shoe-size" to your list of adjectives.

And for my own .02 cents - I don't like the fees, but I don't mind the fees, as long as they do what they are supposed to do. You're looking to launch me on a whole "mindboggling expense of everyday government" tirade that just wouldn't be pretty. Lots of money wasted, inefficient processes and accounting, too many programs, etc. But - that being mentioned, it is the current system we have, so don't just complain about the system - work within the system and see if you can't improve things.

Myself - I'll pay the fees because I have to, and I'll also pick up the odd piece of trash I find just to do my part. Not much - but there it is.

ck_1 · Post by **ck_1** » Jul 09 2003 1:38 pm

olesma wrote:Myself - I'll pay the fees because I have to, and I'll also pick up the odd piece of trash I find just to do my part. Not much - but there it is.

You're right...it's not much...but...we all make the world the way it is...if everybody did a little, not much, just a little...the trash issue would no longer exist...

I agree wiht Olesma...I pay the fee, each year, along with the other fees for the other passes needed to utilize public land...I need to think of it as an investment...

CindyC · Post by **CindyC** » Jul 09 2003 1:49 pm

ck1 wrote:
olesma wrote:Myself - I'll pay the fees because I have to, and I'll also pick up the odd piece of trash I find just to do my part. Not much - but there it is.
You're right...it's not much...but...we all make the world the way it is...if everybody did a little, not much, just a little...the trash issue would no longer exist...

I agree wiht Olesma...I pay the fee, each year, along with the other fees for the other passes needed to utilize public land...I need to think of it as an investment...

What a positive attitude!

JimmineyGrl · Post by **JimmineyGrl** » Jul 09 2003 2:44 pm

hikeaz wrote:Disney, AMFAC and the like are behind the Red Rock Pass
READ THIS > http://www.redrockreview.com/no_fees2.html
AND THIS > http://www.aznofee.org/aznofee/news.php

Is anyone else outraged by these articles? I don't mind paying a small fee for upkeep, parking and etc. but not for profit! It is a dangerous business allowing corporations to have ANY kind of control over our National Forrests. It may seem that their intentions are good (for now) but corporations operate for one purpose and one purpose alone and that is to make money for the stock holders.

If we don't do anything about this issue and just allow it to gain acceptance (mainly through ignorance I imagine) then we will quickly loose control. Our children will accept these fees, whose main purpose is NOT the preservation of the national forrests, just like we accept drivers licenses and social security numbers.

mttgilbert · Post by **mttgilbert** » Jul 09 2003 2:52 pm

In response to JimmineyGrl's reply:

The only thing you can do, other than scream until you lose your voice, is not pay the fee. The corporations already have their foot in the door. You can bet that they will never, ever, remove it, come hell or high water. Yes I am as angered by those articles as you, and I hate to sound like there is nothing that can be done, but nobody ever seems to like to solution any more than the problem. In this case the most effective way to stop the corporations from getting in on the national park profits would be to file an injunction. That costs money, lots of money, way more money than you, or I, or probably this site combined could put up. An organization like the sierra club has the kind of resources needed, but then you get another "corporate" agenda on the board. Maybe it would be a lesser evil, but still its not ideal.