Should ruins or caves on public land be secrets?

[joebartels]

When I started hiking I was surprised to find sharing some public locations was frowned upon. That's putting it lightly. Rather a virtual knock on the door by the concerned. More times than not I was told what I was allowed to do on public land.

My thinking was and is that scaring folks away is a stupid angle. It has created one ruins website I've crossed paths with that was specifically created out of hate for the lack of information. Let's just say it was created by Peter. Dare we even go into social media. Seems like proof that method backfired.

I've been near the initial sentence location in my hikes many times. It wasn't planned but I turned away as I approached. I'd rather be able to say with honesty, I've never laid eyes on it. Anyone that knows me, knows I avoid these locations. I just want to hike without controversy. There is plenty to see without ever going to ruins or caves. I created HAZ in hopes of a peaceful resource because someone was rude to me while researching information on a peak. If sharing historic places on public lands offends or is deemed irresponsible by a fair margin then I certainly do not want HAZ to fuel that fire.

When asked to delete geocodes on HAZ photos in sensitive areas I've gracefully complied. Same for aircraft wreckage, springs near private property, etc. There is a fauna label that if applied pops up "Location protected by HAZ Hikebot." I'm open to ideas to apply that tactic or such in other ways.
Since we have a fair sized group of like-welding jokesters it's monitored. Ultimately the moderated status on this topic too. Keep in mind there are other moderators for the forum. I do welcome those interested that show public signs of using that control while being impartial.

Perhaps no routes on ruins or dead-spot locations that allow nothing to be queried for a radius on such items. Perhaps no guides on ruins or caves period. Peter is praying he gets more traffic...

RS in beta has new labels for route finding, technical, no dogs. Point is, HAZ is the accumulation of ideas. It's member driven. If running away, posting garbage, supporting corporated driven instead and turning off HAZ is the answer let's hear it.

[chumley]

It's a complex issue, and seems unlikely to be one where a consensus will be reached.

For me there are two questions:
1. What value do I place on a site.
2. Do I trust that every single person who visits a site will not cause harm.

Most comments above acknowledge that #2 is unrealistic; there will always be a bad apple. If you agree, then value becomes the determining factor. Does the benefit of sharing outweigh the risk of damage/desecration/destruction?

The highest-value locations have been protected by management agencies (Kartchner Caverns, Keet Seel, Tonto NM, etc.).

What value do you place on the locations with no protections in place?

[Tough_Boots]

For me there are two questions:
1. What value do I place on a site.
2. Do I trust that every single person who visits a site will not cause harm.

Your missing an important (often more so) third question:

What value do others place on a site?

[chumley]

You're missing an important (often more so) third question:

What value do others place on a site?

Yes, thank you for adding that. I would hope that what value I place on a site takes into consideration the value that others place on it.

[Alston_Neal]

You're missing an important (often more so) third question:

What value do others place on a site?

Yes, thank you for adding that. I would hope that what value I place on a site takes into consideration the value that others place on it.

This is really a good point that had not occurred to me, or least not so easily phrased. I often post our hikes on FB especially ones with petros. Last year I posted some from the Gila River area and received many kudos from my non Native friends. But from my Native friends I got the spectrum from how cool please take us there to how dare you even go to such places and have the Colonial attitude of photographing and posting on line. Some said I have now destroyed these sacred sites and now others will go. Of course there were no background shots, GPS or any possible links, but the core is about what this discussion is about. Ruins, not ours, we don't even know the names these people called their homes/villages or the people themselves. So what value do others place on a site is the all important question. So my analogy about ruins/air crash sites holds that any link to ruins is the same as links to crash sites and many believe that public info is detrimental, if not down right sacriledge.

[joebartels]

I think Joe started this thread to get discussion about Route Scout...

No but inadvertently may help make it better.

I recently posted a comment on a HAZ members triplog that may or may not have been the impetus for the start of this discussion.

The comment seemed polite, potentially helpful and void of any personal attack.

At any rate. The subject is verbatim from a poll years ago. It is now attached to the top of this topic. Per usual, vote may be changed.