Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

[Thoreau]

Meeting is tomorrow, July 13th...

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/lo ... 945916002/

"The Phoenix fire union is asking the city’s Parks and Recreation board to consider closing several challenging Valley trails on days with an excessive heat watch.

During a public meeting on Tuesday, members of the United Phoenix Firefighters Association will request restrictions to three trailheads at Camelback Mountain and Piestewa Peak when outside temperatures reach 105 degrees."

Some of my best times on those trails were very much above 105 degrees. It's the only time the crowds thin out enough to get a good pace going.

[FOTG]

I have absolutely no dog in this fight, but what a silly knee jerk reaction. Someone let the fire fighters know that we live in one of the hottest places on this earth and we are living through the beginning of a climate crisis that will only make it worse, get used to it. During the first real heat wave of the year firefighters responded to 103 heat related calls over a 72 hour period. People passing out on hiking trails from the heat is hardly the only thing leading to these fire fighters being called out in these dangerous conditions. The extreme heat is just leading to more calls period and more heat related illnesses. Unless we start banning all outdoor rec during excessive heat this is a silly policy. I mean but of course they would vote yes, the city of Phoenix puts more effort into closing the parks and restricting access than they do in up keep and keeping them open these days.

https://www.azfamily.com/weather/extrem ... f7c92.html

[nonot]

@chumley
If you are offering an alternative for how rescuers can conduct rescues in 115 degree heat, without having to walk up the mountain carrying rescue gear, and getting heat exhaustion/dehydration as a result, I'm sure the FD would be interested.

When the 115+ temperatures exclude the ability to reliably use helicopters, I do not personally see any practical alternatives to the death march rescue strategy. A little common sense can be applied here without needing a whole lot of data to be collected.

Maybe one day we'll all have the jet packs promised to use by Saturday morning cartoons, or maybe they'll buy better helicopters that can operate to 130 degrees.

[chumley]

@nonot
Thank you for seeing my point. When you can explain why you cited 115 degrees and they cited 105 we'll be making progress.

[nonot]

@chumley
I should of typed 116 degrees rather than 115, as I was trying to use my memory of the article, rather than directly quoting from it. The second thing you lose as you get older is your memory...

Anyway, here's what I was referring to:

"The trails at the two mountains are risky for first responders due to their terrain and elevations, which the union said were among “the most challenging areas in Phoenix to access.” The statement continued by stating crews require air support and, on especially hot days, helicopters have trouble maneuvering when temperatures exceed 116 degrees."

[chumley]

@nonot
So why did they decide to close trails at 105?

[ShatteredArm]

@chumley
Your mistake here seems to be that you're assuming that people are interested in making decisions based on data and hard evidence, and not knee-jerk reactions.

I would enthusiastically support the city council deciding to commission a study to determine the best way to reduce heat-related injuries among hikers and first responders. But this isn't it.

[trekkin_gecko]

105 is too low

[Jim]

So, aside from not getting rescued if you need it should a hiker violate a closure, is there enforcement? I mean, in theory lots of trails are closed in the Catalinas, but no one cares and there is zero enforcement.

[AugustWest]

I understand and support the idea of data collection and analysis. The problem with this idea is that most data that is collected by municipal fire departments is connected to insurance reporting responsibilities relating to the property loss suffered by individuals and businesses. The second issue is that the FD officers who posses the data to make data driven choices are typically not equipped with the tools or training to aggregate, synthesize and review data to make the type of policy related choices that the union asked for and received. These types of requests (limiting responses to a maximum temp) are extremely unusual as most fire departments serve selflessly. My instinct is that there is genuine stress within the responding units to incidents on Piestewa and Camelback. This request on the part of the union feels like an issue of criticality to me rather than a knee jerk reaction.

The assumption that the PHX FD is the only agency that can respond to these types of emergencies is an interesting one. Central Arizona Mountain Rescue and the Maricopa County Sherriff's Department are equipped to respond to wildland rescues and do so regularly. Perhaps, shifting the emergency response responsibility to an all volunteer core of citizens that only conduct rescues on Camelback and Piestewa would make more sense and take some of the pressure off of the Phoenix Fire Department. Any takers here for such a cadre?

Firefighters suffer cardiac arrest, skin cancer and numerous other health ailments at a far higher rate than the rest of the population. Life expectancy is lower and when there are national emergencies it is firefighters that are at the tip of the spear and die seeking to save the lives of the innocent. Google, National Fallen Firefighters Memorial and if you are ever around Gettysburg, PA a visit to the memorial in Emmitsburg, MD is a sobering reminder of the sacrifice that these heroes make on a daily basis.

[Heliops]

Is being implemented starting the 16th. https://www.phoenix.gov/newsroom/parks- ... ation/1987

[trekkin_gecko]

an excessive heat watch is generally not issued until temps hit 110
which is a more reasonable restriction

[toddak]

Ha Ha I just looked up "ermahgerd", I had no idea! I've seen Ermahgerd Canyon on HAZ, figured it was just somebody's name. Pop culture is definitely not my strong suit

[Alston_Neal]

Ha Ha I just looked up "ermahgerd", I had no idea!

That right there put this topic to an all new level!

[ShatteredArm]

Firefighters suffer cardiac arrest, skin cancer and numerous other health ailments at a far higher rate than the rest of the population. Life expectancy is lower and when there are national emergencies it is firefighters that are at the tip of the spear and die seeking to save the lives of the innocent. Google, National Fallen Firefighters Memorial and if you are ever around Gettysburg, PA a visit to the memorial in Emmitsburg, MD is a sobering reminder of the sacrifice that these heroes make on a daily basis.

I'm not sure how this argument is relevant. In terms of "most dangerous jobs", firefighters aren't even in the top ten. But I know it's not a contest, so... the real question, which those who support these closures continue to avoid, is will this actually make the job safer? And again, that's not really clear here. That it spreads rescues out in a way that's even more detrimental to the firefighters is a real possibility.

I don't know that "but we have to do something!!1" is a satisfactory reason to avoid making a data-driven decision. You called it "an issue of criticality" (whatever that means), but I don't see how that means it's not a knee-jerk reaction.

[chumley]

I just looked up "ermahgerd"

The original ermahgerd woman is a nurse who lives in the Phoenix area. She might even be a hiker who likes hiking camelpie on hot afternoons!?

[DixieFlyer]

@nonot
So why did they decide to close trails at 105?

science

[nonot]

@nonot
So why did they decide to close trails at 105?

Because of Tom Petty...

In reality, when numerous hikers and rescuers are being hospitalized due to the heat, it's too hot.

Since their approach of using signs to ask/beg/plead with people to only hike well-prepared is ineffective, then closing the trails is the natural reaction as the next step, where a few bad apples have spoiled it for everyone. Thus a a limit needs to be defined for the heat-related closure, perhaps 105 was chosen arbitrarily. If you want to argue that 105 isn't the right number, then I'll leave you to it, after all, on the internet, everyone is an expert.

I'd prefer if they simply passed the policy that you can hike at your own risk, and if you fail to properly prepare, then you die with no chance of rescue. But such a policy of letting people die is too gruesome for the average citizen to stomach. The politicians would never vote for that, I'd think.

[Heliops]

It's mostly out of towners giving us a problem. Last week our unit lifted a guy off Camelback at 1500 hrs. He was from the east cost, he stated he had hike it February and didn't see a problem. He was only carrying one bottle of water.

[chumley]

It's mostly out of towners giving us a problem.

Is it? This is one of the statistics I’d like to know. Details please.

[big_load]

It's mostly out of towners giving us a problem.

Is it? This is one of the statistics I’d like to know. Details please.

I have several problems available if anyone needs help skewing the statistics.

Seriously, though, people who haven't experienced it don't have any concept of how much faster you dehydrate in the desert in the same temperature in a humid climate.