More to inflatable insulated sleeping pads than meets the eye (not to mention, ear)

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

So, in 2019, I bought a Nemo Tensor Insulated inflatable sleeping pad. Knowing nothing about backpacking, I opted for the lighter, cheaper option, the Regular size pad. (As opposed to Wide.)

At the time, Nemo wasn't saying what the R value was. (IIRC, they said there was no standard.) Now that there is a standard, I think they rated it at 3.5.

It's been a fine pad. It was a little noisy at first - every time I turned around, I felt bad for the guy in the next tent.

But either I've become hard of hearing lately or the pad has become quieter with use. (I think mostly the latter.)

It has never failed and even though "only" 20 inches wide, I was comfortable on it.

The only problem I've had of late is that the rubber used for the valve has lost some of its pliability (is it hardening?) and it has been difficult to open the value. (I swabbed it with Armor-All (it made my car seats slippery), which seems to have helped.)

Anyway, all the "Influencers" tell me that I'll be more comfortable with a wider, 25", pad. So I was thinking about selling my old Nemo and buying the new, for 2022, Wide Nemo Tensor Insulated pad.

It is said to be as quiet as the previous model, but now the R value increased to 4.2.

I hypothesize that you can have the best sleeping bag in the world, but it won't do you much good if you're sleeping on the best heat sink in the world. (The "Earth.") So it seems to me that a higher R value pad can effectively increase the Comfort Rating of your sleeping bag.

Sounded perfect. (Albeit $200 a few months ago before Inflation really kicked in.)

Except if you read REAL reviews, left by REAL users (not "Influencers,") you'll read that the new Nemo pad tears, rips, leaks terribly. (In fact, a popular outfitter stopped carrying them recently.)

I suspect that, like the Space Shuttle disaster caused when NASA changed its foam tiles to a "Green" product, Nemo's failures are also a result from "Going Green." (Switching to recycled materials, instead of what worked best.)

So Nemo was out.

Now, back in 2019 I had first tried a Big Agnes AXT (I think it was?). Even though ostensibly insulated, it was terribly cold. And that was in the backyard, in May! In Phoenix!

BA has a different version now called the "Rapide." But still sour from my previous experience, I didn't consider it.

Good thing because I read a Review that pointed out that because of the baffling used in the Rapide, you will be blasted with cold when you move around, because you'll move warm air from out of a chamber, replacing it with cold. Perhaps the same problem I had with the AXT.

Okay, so how about the new (only a month old) Therm-a-Rest NeoAir XTherm NXT?

While everyone says that the T-a-R Neo's are the best, everyone also says that they are LOUD. Like crunching a potato chip bag.

So Therm-a-Rest fixed that and it's much quieter now. (Although I don't know if as quiet as a Nemo.)

So, except for the fact that no one knows if it's durable, that looked like my next option.

Although at $250 ... yikes!

But again, a good Review to the rescue.

It turns out that, because this pad (and also the Nemo) rely on Mylar foil held in a matrix puffed up by air, you have to inflate the pad to the max to realize the full R value of the bag. (Makes sense. Otherwise, the foil might not be stretched out properly or face the proper direction.)

The down side of this, according to the good Reviewer, is that the pad is uncomfortably hard/stiff when inflated to the max.

If you let a little bit of air out to make it more comfortable, you lose R value and it goes cold.

Who woulda thought? (Not me. Which I why I'm poating this.)

My Nemo Tensor doesn't seem as susceptible to this effect. But I'm sure it is to some degree. (No pun intended. But I'll take it.)

For now I am trying the new Outdoor Vitals Oblivion Long-Wide.

I probably fell for the hype, because they teased a launch last week, with video, and a sale price of $110.

Now THAT'S my price point.

As above, I have no idea how durable it will be. I don't know anything about OV, but they have a lifetime warranty. (OTOH, I've read that their Customer Service is not good.)

I took a nap on it this afternoon, and 1) yes, I like a wider pad and 2) it was comfortable for a half hour nap. (Bonus: Being longer, pillow placement isn't as critical.)

I plan to try it in the backyard tonight. (We're expecting rain at 4 am.)

It's only a couple ounces heavier than a Nemo Long-Wide, and packs down almost the same.

Its R Value is stated to be 3.5, the same as my old Nemo.

They say that they use "synthetic" insulation. I don't know what that means. But there's no Mylar in it. So no crinkling. Probably not dependent on max inflation for max insulation.

I don't know if it's baffled/chambered such that I'll run cold with movement. That's part of tonight's test.

[Mountain_Rat]

@TooOld2HikeQ
Best I've used is this one. Looks semi-difficult to get ahold of, but you might watch Amazon. There's one available now for $194, but it likely won't be around long. If you're a weight-watcher or want the most compact unit, then disregard, but this pad and a 30 degree quilt keep me warm at 20 deg.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07P3 ... merReviews

The quilt:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08MV ... ikearizona

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

@Mountain_Rat
Tnx. I have seen that one. (It's a Klymit brand.) I have one of their pillows (the 'X" one) and am fairly happy with it.

I'm not a gram weenie, per se. But even tho the R value is fantastic and it's thicker than most, <s>it's too heavy for me.</s>

(Update: Although, now that I think about it, it's only a few ounces heavier than the Outdoor Vitals Oblivion Long-Wide. However, the deal breaker for me - at this time - is that, at 27" wide, it will not fit in my UL1.)

If I were a winter hiker only, or if I lived near the Canadian border, I would buy it and accept the weight. I'm kind of resolved that winter backpacking will be heavy. (Although, per a conversation with an AZT volunteer during my hike, I expect to carry more water in the summer, meaning that my pack will always weigh the same, winter or summer.)

It might be the engineer in me - or the cheapskate in me: I like using middle-of-the-road equiment and then tweaking it to make it better. (Changing a carburetor on a V-6 engine, overclocking a middling CPU, using a modified bivvy bag with my sleeping bag (which works at 20 F), etc.)

So if my current R=3.5 sleeping pad can be made to perform better with a $6 thin EVA foam pad from Michael's crafts, I'm happy.

I can control my load better this way too - I won't need to carry a high loft, hot, winter sleeping bag for non-winter backpacking.

[rcorfman]

Unless you get cold easily, or are planning on sleeping in snow, I'm not sure I'd go the XTherm route. I've had the XLite for 8 years or so. I've used it for at least 4000 miles of backpacking in hot and cold. Normally I use a quilt, so I sleep directly on the pad. I've used it several nights where it dropped below freezing. Yea, it's not quiet, but it doesn't wake me up, ha. I have a regular and I usually bunch my pack on one side and clothing on the other side to lay my arms on. Good luck figuring this out.

[big_load]

Unless you get cold easily, or are planning on sleeping in snow, I'm not sure I'd go the XTherm route. I've had the XLite for 8 years or so. I've used it for at least 4000 miles of backpacking in hot and cold. Normally I use a quilt, so I sleep directly on the pad. I've used it several nights where it dropped below freezing. Yea, it's not quiet, but it doesn't wake me up, ha. I have a regular and I usually bunch my pack on one side and clothing on the other side to lay my arms on. Good luck figuring this out.

I feel the same about the XLite. I do most of my Southwest backpacking in cool/cold weather and it's been quite adequate for that, especially for the weight. I haven't found anything as comfortable that's as light, too. It is a bit noisy, but then so is my sleeping bag hood scratching against my beard, which happens right next to my ears. It doesn't bother me in practice since I'm usually so worn out when I crawl into the tent that nothing could keep me awake for very long (except a mouse crawling in dead leaves).

[RedRoxx44]

I use the Klymit V ultralite SL at 11.9 oz most of the time and the Klymit Insulated V Ultralite Sl at 16oz. The R rating on the insulated one is not very good; I carry a Western Mountaineering bag for 99% of my travels and while more a summer time bag is rated to about 32 degrees and is pretty on it for that temp. If it's really cold weather camping I use a bag liner and carry some warmer sleeping undies.

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

Wow! If the measure of the comfort of a sleeping pad is how little one tosses & turns while sleeping, then the new Oblivion is a winner in that category.

I camped out in the backyard last night to try it out. I laid down on my side to sleep, and four hours later, when I woke up to empty my bladder, I was still on my side!

Contrast this with my (2019) Nemo Tensor.

I wasn't consciously uncomfortable sleeping on my Tensor in the sense that I dreaded sleeping on it or that it hurt to sleep on it. But apparently, subconsciously, my body was uncomfortable sleeping on it because my body was always changing position throughout the night. (A sympathetic nervous system response to pressure points?)

I just assumed that this was normal, that one would never be very comfortable camping out.

I can't say that the Oblivion is as comfortable as my bed. It's not. But it's a lot more comfortable than my previous pad.

As an added bonus with the Long/Wide size of my new Oblivion, I was able to stretch out, for the first time ever, beyond the length of my body, bottoming out my sleeping bag.

I presume that my arms were happier too with the wider pad when I was laying on my back, although, again, I never really dreaded sleeping on the narrower Tensor, even though my elbows fell off the sides of the pad.

Since it was only one night, I can't report on the durability of the Oblivion. (Should I take the Tensor as a backup on my next planned backpacking overnight?)

And, since the ground temp was only 40 F (according to my IR thermometer), I can't accurately report on the Oblivion's insulation properties.

It seemed warm when I placed my palm on it (reflecting back the heat of my palm) and I wasn't cold as I slept. (I didn't use my "extreme" system last night, my bivvy bag nor my extra warm layers.) Since I'm a "cold" sleeper, I think I would have felt if its insulation properties were lacking. But I'll need colder ground to know for sure.

No crinkling sounds. Not much noise when moving on it.

So far I'm a happy camper.

[Nighthiker]

Just use a cold weather sleeping bag and forgo the sleeping pad. Take two Aleve and you will be fine.

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

@Nighthiker
Yikes!

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

More regarding the new Oblivion:

The pump sack isn't as good as Nemo's pump sack because it doesn't have a small throat/venturi to make for efficient filling.

As a side note, it takes a LOT more air to fill up the Oblivion than my old Nemo Tensor. Like 15 (vs 5) iterations of the pump sack. Perhaps more air is part of why it's more comfortable?

Last, a really small nit: You can't modulate the air in the pad once inflated by pressing on the little "button" in the value. (Unlike the Nemo.) I plan to use Shoe-Goo to glue a tiny stiff rubber pillar on the flapper so that I can reduce the pressure in tiny amounts of air out while in use.

[ShatteredArm]

On the subject of the Therm-a-Rest, my experience from trying one was that, not only was it louder than a potato chip bag, its durability was such that it popped on the third night despite my not being particularly heavy. My Big Agnes sleeping pad lasted for 2-3 years before developing a slow leak.

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

Two updates on my new Oblivion sleeping pad:

1) I told Outdoor Vitals that their pump sack isn't as efficient as Nemo's. (It's also about 25% smaller.) They replied that Nemo has a patent on the shape of their pump sack!

So I printed a rubber (TPU) adapter on my 3d printer to go from the Nemo pump sack to my Oblivion. (I would insert a photo if there were an easy way to do it.)

Now I can inflate my Oblivion using the Nemo pump sack in about five cycles of 4 breaths each instead of 10+ cycles with many more breaths.

2) I looked more closely at the inside of the Oblivion. It uses a 1/8" (approx) layer of polyester attached to the upper inside skin for their insulation.

Definitely low tech (as compared to the bags that use Mylar) and it's difficult to understand how such a small layer could give an ASTM rating of 3.5. But it seems to work okay.

One advantage of the non-Mylar technology is that the Oblivion's R value is not critically dependent on inflation. Whereas the Mylar units only achieve their rated R value at Max Inflation.

A disadvantage is pack size.

I don't have a Nalgene bottle. But from photos, it looks like my new pad packs "down" (as it were) to just a little wider than a Nalgene. (After diligently working to pull all the air out of it.) Going by published numbers, it doesn't seem too much wider than other long-wide pads when packed down. But it is definitely big. (You're not going to be able to compress that polyester much.)

The skin of my Oblivion also seems thicker than my Nemo, which also accounts for its largish pack size. But perhaps a good thing as far as durability is concerned.

As of this writing, I haven't seen any reviews about the new Oblivion on the Net. (Except here, of course.)

(Which, to my surprise, the search engines have already indexed.)

[big_load]

One key attribute of the NeoAir is the baffle system that chokes off internal convection within the pad, which the most important path of heat transfer from the person to the ground. Does the Outdoor Vitals have something like that?

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

@big_load
I'm guessing "no." At least not in the sense of fully enclosed or horizonal baffles.

But the Oblivion does have "I-beam cushion construction," of which the metadata header for Search Engines says "Large baffles keep you off the ground."

So there are a lot of small baffles. But they are vertical, linking the top skin to the bottom.

I don't think that there's a middle, horizontal layer, which would be the "blocker" that you're talking about.

(But my pad is rolled up tight right now. I'll look again the next time that I inflate it.)

[big_load]

So there are a lot of small baffles. But they are vertical, linking the top skin to the bottom.

I don't think that there's a middle, horizontal layer, which would be the "blocker" that you're talking about.

That would still help, even if the cells are top-to-bottom. The resistance to convective flow is related the to total baffle surface area, so a bunch of small vertical cells will lose heat slower than one huge one.

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

@big_load
One test, which I can't perform until next winter, is to put my Oblivion half in snow and the other half on my Therm-a-Rest half foam/half air mattress. I would lay on the Oblivion and then make a massive move on it, so as to move air around inside. If I suddenly feel colder on the side that was on the Therm-a-Rest then it "fails" the baffle test.

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

@big_load
Although the ASTM test (for R Value) is a good start, they need a dynamic, Generation II test, where the machine runs a large roller side to side and up & down the sleeping pad to simulate a sleeper moving around. And they need to measure at multiple points on a grid to see if there are any cold spots caused by the movement.

[jonathanpatt]

I've been using a NeoAir Xlite exclusively for backpacking since 2015. I warrantied it once in 2019 after a baffle blew inside and it developed a massive leak. But I use it year around for work, probably 120 – 160 nights a year, down to at least 16° several times so far.

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

@jonathanpatt
That's impressive durability.

While technology was making these advances possible in the recent past, I think we're now in the "They don't make 'em like they used to" category as far as longevity & QA are concerned. (As in my OP where I mentioned durability problems with Nemo's latest pad.)

[azbackpackr]

@jonathanpatt
@TooOld2HikeQ
I have two Neo Air pads. One is a full length with a low R value, and the other one is a 3/4 length with a higher R value. I have sent both of them back to be repaired and both times I got brand new pads back.

I don't see any reason to buy a new one except that I would like one that's much wider, for car and kayak camping. But I just went car camping for two solid weeks, using the long one with an ensolite pad underneath. I was fine. I just put clothing to pad the sides, where I like to stick my arms out straight. As usual I slept better in my tent than I do at home. Maybe I'll put some triplogs up.