stay warm backpacking in winter

kiddiehawk · Post by **kiddiehawk** » Oct 26 2003 7:38 pm

I'm wanting to do a 2-3 day trip around Thanksgiving time and want to continue to be able to backpack throughout the winter, but I hate the cold and have had more than one miserable night backpacking in the cold. I'll take 90 degrees over 50 any night! My 20 degree bag with sleeping pad never seemed to keep me warm even in 50 degree weather. I now have a zero degree bag and a little warming pad that heats up when you push the button, but I'm still worried about keeping warm throughout the night.

Any ideas of where I could go that would be warmest? (not too much shade, lower lands, allowed to build a fire..., even if I have to drive out of state).

Any ideas for keeping warm besides the obvious of buying expensive lightweight synthetic clothing, hat, gloves, and good socks....?

Also, I read the "weather" article and the hiker suggested hike in 65-85 (I think) weather only (meant more for day hikes, I believe?).
I'm wondering if most people take a long break from backpacking certain times of the year (winter...) or how many people are doing lots of "winter" backpacking.

joebartels · Post by **joebartels** » Oct 26 2003 7:51 pm

Welcome to HAZ kiddiehawk

just wanted to add that my Weather article was intended for day hiking

I can't offer much advice for staying warm, but I'm sure some good advice will surface over the next day or so.

mttgilbert · Post by **mttgilbert** » Oct 26 2003 7:58 pm

I do overnights in the superstitions all year long. I've never been too cold with my t-rest, down bag, and sometimes a fire. If you have a fire, find yourself some granite (make sure its not sandstone) slabs and line them on the opposite side of the fire to form a reflector, make the fire long and narrow and lay down parrallel to it, all you have to do is turn over at various times during the night for an even roast. You can also buy some of the various hand/foot warmers and stuff them into your socks, pockets, hats, and where ever else you want.

Shi · Post by **Shi** » Oct 26 2003 8:27 pm

In response to kiddiehawk's reply: I REALLY like being snuggly warm AND I love backpacking, so I've found a few things which really helps. I don't generally use a tent when I backpack, so I'm out with the elements. I will use a space blanket, put the shiny side under my thermarest (face up) and wrap the rest of it over me so the shiny side is now towards my bag (this actually makes me too warm some nights and is a great insulation for retaining heat), I always wear warm socks and when I get cold I'll put on a hat (screw hat head....it goes away) and the hat is amazing for warming me up fast and keeping me warm. The hat had been my biggest solution to keeping warm. I am a complete whimp when it comes to being cold. I wear sweaters in the summer time! Mary

FAF · Post by **FAF** » Oct 26 2003 9:26 pm

In response to kiddiehawk's reply:

I also hate the cold - but holing up indoors 6 months of the year would be a worse situation.

So one thing that has worked for me is to do "cold season" hikes in places with darker rock and at lower elevations. For example, the last 3 Novembers I have done Death Valley twice (several canyons on the east side), and the Lava Falls area once. All worked fine. The dark rocks retain heat from the sunlight, and every 1000 feet change in elevation is a 4-5 degrees F swing - a big deal at night!

My guess is a lot of the Western Grand Cayon area would work Nov-Mar. Just camp as close to the river as possible. And don't get stuck driving out there.

I also always dress in layers during the cold season, including taking along a fleece vest and a shell. And lightweight long underwear, a hat that covers the ears, and fleece sweats for over the hiking shorts. You don't have to spend a fortune on this approach, and it is light - adds only about 2 pounds to my typical summer clothing stash, since you need a shell anyway.

I will also use a very light tent when cold AND wind are there. I don't remember the numbers, but Colin Fletcher's "Complete Walker" book talked about how much warmer a tent is than the outside air once you've been in there exhaling for a while. I think it was 10-15 degrees warmer, or something like that. Anyway, it works. Not the same as conking out under the stars, but hey, stay up watching the stars until you are too tired to stay awake, and then jump in the tent. You'll be surprised how warm you are when you wake up.

overrocked · Post by **overrocked** » Oct 27 2003 9:07 am

I like a balaclava better than a hat, it keeps the drafts out better. I don't like to be in a tent because with the extra 10 degrees warmth I always get condensation. Venting seems to defeat the purpose of the extra warmth. I'd like to investigate getting a bag cover for extra protection from the wind, because I don't know if that will cause too much condensation also. The tarp seems to cut the wind enough for my bag to keep me warm.
To help keep you warmer, try camping on the east slope to catch the morning rays, I can never sleep in long enough to allow the warmth to seep in, but maybe others can. I like Matt's suggestion, a nice trench fire with reflector.I'd like to try that sometime.
I always carry polypropylene socks/booties in case of water crossings or camp shoes,sleeping socks, they really keep my feet warm when I have to get out of that cozy warm sleeping bag

mttgilbert · Post by **mttgilbert** » Oct 27 2003 3:56 pm

I use an old military down bag for car camping and the like. It has a water/wind repellant optional cover. If you have trouble with condensation in the tent, it will be even worse in a bag with a cover. I have never been able to sleep through the night in the cover, it does make it a little warmer but about halfway through the night I'm soaked. If its "-proof" enough to keep out water or wind, its probably "-proof" enough to keep in the sweat...

Those trench fires are really nice, but they are also more work to clean up after (larger surface area). Please make sure if you use a trench fire you completely disassemble the fire ring in the morning and disperse the (dead-out) ashes. (thats not directed specifically at you overrocked).

Another good way to make sure you don't get cold is to make sure you're well hydrated and have eaten before you go to bed. Hunger and thirst rob the body of valuable energy it could be using to heat your body, that and digestion is exothermic (produces heat). How much to eat and drink is a personal decision and it should be remembered that its not always easy to get out of the sack to answer the call of nature...

Shi · Post by **Shi** » Oct 27 2003 6:42 pm

I also like to use a bivy when the weather isn't very good, they keep you dry, warm and sheltered (if you can call it that). They are made of gortex which will breath so condensation isn't a problem. I've recently seen them on sale on several sites (I'm shopping for one now).

I do however, REALLY have a tough time with confined places like that......I would say something about condoms here, but I don't think I'm allowed to......I think I get the idea when I'm in a bivy! : queen :

Mary

Abe · Post by **Abe** » Oct 27 2003 7:48 pm

O.K. I admit I do not like camping in cold weather

So I do head in the deserts during the winter. The Verde Valley just on the other side of Mingus from me is great, 3000 feet give or take.

I have a bag rated for 20, a fancy self inflated sleeping pad, a cozy small tent, and to suppliment my bag in cold weather, a poncho liner.

kiddiehawk · Post by **kiddiehawk** » Oct 28 2003 7:09 pm

Thanks for the good info. Most of it I am already trying, but the black rock and a couple other ideas were really good ideas. It's also good to hear that I am not alone in my wanting to hike all yr round, but stay warm dilemma. I'm cold already in the season and don't sleep with my window more than 1 foot open with a down comforter! I'm usually the coldest one in a room. It's very frustrating.

Thinking back, most of the times I was freezing at night I was alone in a tent. I will have to be sure to bring my husband with me from now on if his body heat can help a lot. I imagine that will add to that 10-15 degrees possibly another 10-15 degrees!

About the fire, I was reading a backpacking book that said you should never go to sleep with a fire burning. I'm wondering if that applies more if you are in a tent? Having a fire seems to be a luxury in AZ now-a-days. I'm assuming that fires would be allowed more in desert (treeless) lands where there is no danger of trees burning.

any other ideas on areas with black rock or if it might be warmer near the ocean would be appreciated (I hear it never freezes in San Diego, but then I hear the moisture in the air will make it feel colder).

Abe · Post by **Abe** » Oct 28 2003 7:39 pm

kiddiehawk wrote:About the fire, I was reading a backpacking book that said you should never go to sleep with a fire burning. I'm wondering if that applies more if you are in a tent? Having a fire seems to be a luxury in AZ now-a-days. I'm assuming that fires would be allowed more in desert (treeless) lands where there is no danger of trees burn

Two thoughts occur to me, well actually one. The thought first. This is not meant to offend anyone. Years ago, in the early 70's, Thanksgiving night, a friend and I went on an overnighter in the mountains near Lynx Lake. The temps that night drop down to the teens! And I froze! I was miserable that night and when I crawled out of my bag, I was not a happy camper.

That morning, struggling to warm up over the fire, in the back of my numb mind, I recalled reading something about sleeping in the buff, rather than sleeping with any clothes on. I've been doing it ever since.

Secondly, about the fire. I generally have a fire during the winter months for two reason. The first, the sun sets to soon and I ain't ready for bed dang it, so I need company. The second reason, I am still up and I am cold dang it, so I need some warmth, at least until I am ready for bed at the earliest, 8:00 P.M. But I never, never, leave a fire going, I let it burn out until it is just embers, glowing in the dark. Then I turn in.

mttgilbert · Post by **mttgilbert** » Oct 28 2003 7:41 pm

I do try to avoid fires all-together. But sometimes the cold gets the better of me. I always use small pieces of down wood and keep the fire small. The benefits of a small fire with small diameter fuel are twofold: Its easier on the ecosystem; the ashes are easier to disperse, its easier to make sure the fire is dead out, and small pieces are usually more abundant than thick ones. The other benefit is that several small pieces have a greater surface area than one larger one. That means that your fire burns warmer. Generally this sort of fire keeps me warm long enough to fall asleep comfortably. Soon there after the fire burns out (no big embers to worry about), from there my bag is usually enough to keep me warm enough to sleep. I'm kind of a warm-sleeper though.

AK · Post by AK » Oct 29 2003 1:34 am

In response to Abe's reply:
Abes right. whenever I cold camp I sleep in just my skivvies and a warm bag. It just seems to distribute the heat better. But a warm body next to you is a great bonus too.

hikeaz · Post by **hikeaz** » Oct 29 2003 8:03 am

For warmth, and to keep your bag dry (and therefore warmer), a vapor barrier works great (this, of course, is INSIDE your bag). (To experiment, you may try wearing your rain gear to bed, as a trial - yeah, it's a little soggy sometimes, but you're WARM)

The body loses heat in the following ways:

Evaporation (sweating) and respiration (breathing) when the body temperature is greater than 99°F (like when you are in your sleeping bag). During strenuous exercise, the body loses 85% of its heat through sweating. NOTE: it is also important not to breathe into your sleeping bag all night. Although this may seem to warm one up at first, it will wet the bag over time

Radiation (similar to heat leaving a wood stove). This method of transferring heat usually occurs with air temperatures less than 68°F (20°C). The body loses 65% of its heat through radiation.

Conduction (such as sleeping on cold ground). Heat is transferred in air temperatures less than 68°F (20°C). The body loses about 2% of its heat through air conduction. However, water conducts more heat away from the body than air, so heat can be lost from the body very quickly when it is exposed to cool water.

Convection (such as sitting in front of a fan). Convection helps the body lose 10% to 15% of its heat.

Heat loss through evaporation and respiration increases in dry, windy weather conditions.

Wet clothing/sleeping bag greatly increases heat loss through conduction.

Heat loss in cold, wet weather conditions increases the risk for hypothermia and cold injury. Heat loss can occur in warm climates through conduction.

For more complete data, see > http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... 00184.html

hikeaz · Post by **hikeaz** » Oct 29 2003 8:50 am

Also see >> http://acad.smumn.edu/finnovations/Hood/hood.html

Because... while an adequate bag is essential to keeping warm, a person should keep in mind that most body heat is lost through the head. If your body feels cold, this occurs because blood is taken away from the skin. It's all a matter of the body trying to protect itself (the core organs).
But the body continues to pump blood to the head, (although I sometimes wonder about some people) and this can account for up to 75% of heat loss. If you can prevent loss of heat through the head the rest of the body has a better chance of staying warm.

Also....Eat plenty of food and drink lots of water. No one wants to make that trip outside in the middle of winter, so some cut back on water. But the basic fact is this: no matter how much food you have in your system, the chemical process of turning it into energy (heat) cannot take place without plenty of water in the system. So, drink, drink, drink!
Just being outside in the winter causes you to lose a great amount of water, much more than you would in summer. In winter we breath in air that is very dry, and exhale air saturated with water. This must be replaced by drinking more water.

joebartels · Post by **joebartels** » Oct 29 2003 4:07 pm

wow, that's some great info HikeAZ, thanks for sharing!

I hope kiddiehawk comes back to check this thread out. I know I've learned more than expected.

pfredricks · Post by **pfredricks** » Oct 30 2003 10:31 am

I think the sleeping in the buff is about a fifty/ fifty opinion that it works.
I seem to have read about this debate recently. I sleep in long johns unless I have company.

I dont know how short you are, but the size of your sleeping bag is also essential. If you are very small you should have a small form fitting (mummy) bag-zipped up with only your snout sticking out> . Make sure your bag is not too long, and has a very good draft tube. (that covers up the zipper from drafts) Lots of extra dead air space in the bag will leave you feeling cold. ONe thing I learned is that some bags are definitely not as good as their ratings. (+20 does not always mean you should use it to that) Review websites/magazines that evaluate this.

Another thing people dont think about is fluffing up the pile on their bag. When you take it out of the stuff sack, you must fluff it tremendously. Maybe it goes without saying, but the pile (fluffiness) is what keeps you warm. Should have a barrier between you and the ground. THermarest, pile of leaves-that's essential. Stay out of the wind.

Another twist to the fire thing is to heat some types of rock, and bury them in a midly shallow trough, cover them with sand or dirt-you then sleep over that. Then the rocks will release heat all night long and you can put the fire dead out. Dont heat limestone!!!!

A tent at a minimum should reduce the drafts and wind gusts you get. There is a whole science to campsite selection to keep you warm. You can review websites that discuss this-and believe me it makes a difference.

HOpe that helps- I am sure most of that is basic knowledge, but, i guess it doesnt hurt to mention it.

kiddiehawk · Post by **kiddiehawk** » Oct 30 2003 1:00 pm

Oh, I'm still here, Joe, and actually I don't know what i did without this website before! I'll be posting and reading a lot more.

About sleeping in the... the new member will say it... the Nude: I've tried that a few times and haven't seen it to work, but ofcourse it's hard to test that; maybe the nights I tried it it was xtra cold and the nights i wore clean clothes it wasn't as cold out. I've read that it's an old Boy Scout belief and actually does not work. I also read that if it's really cold out you don't want to zip sleeping bags together with someone else, as you will lose lots of air around the neck, which makes sense. What I do now is bring a pair of clean clothes/socks just for sleeping and for the last hiking day out. It's xtra weight, but I appreciate those clean warm clothes at night.

due to work, I may only be able to do an overnighter this Thanksgiving. Any other ideas on good warm places less than a few hrs away where we could get good sun and maybe some black rock... (oh, I luv the black rock idea!)?

kiddiehawk · Post by **kiddiehawk** » Oct 30 2003 2:19 pm

i've been looking on the backpacking hikes and notice that a lot of hikes in the superstitions say they get to 30 degrees at night. most hikes only have a few degree difference, usually like 62-67 degrees, which I assume means in the day time and nights weren't factored in. I've never had luck finding accurate weather online, since it usually asks for the nearby town and i'm sure the weather in the desert and mtns is quite a bit colder than in town and lots of hiking books don't tell the weather, just the best time of yr to go. I've found some good websites for specific hikes with weather, but nothing all that complete.

does anyone know of any accurate ways to find out weather (day and night) for different places different times of yr?

Also, is 30 degrees at night prob accurate for the superstitions for late november?

Daryl · Post by **Daryl** » Oct 30 2003 2:32 pm

Depends on where in the supes. Anything about 5000 ft in alt will be in the low 30's at night. Add 4 degrees for every 1000 feet less and that should be pretty close.

As for sleeping in the buff, I tried it once. In the middle of the night I got cold and dressed myself and was fine after that.
The engineer in my says that the more insulation between my body and the cold air, the warmer I'll stay...

stay warm backpacking in winter

stay warm backpacking in winter

Re: stay warm backpacking in winter

Re: stay warm backpacking in winter

not getting cold