SARSAT Beacons

azrocks · Post by **azrocks** » Oct 17 2002 12:16 pm

I was at a Cody Lundin presentation recently, and was struck by the absurdity of
lost hikers signaling with mirrors, whistles and forest fires, when since 1982 we have
had a satellite based Search and Rescue system that has saved 12000 lives worldwide.
It's easy to find web links to cute hand-held beacons the size of a Talkabout, but you
have to get it from Australia/Italy etc. and it's compatible but illegal in the US except
in Alaska, where they have had a pilot Personal Locator Beacon program for some years.
The issue is that early systems had a high false alarm rate, and personal use would
overload the system, but the latest 406 MHz standard is much better.
I saw a news report that hiker SARSAT would be legal throughout the US from July 2002.
Does anyone know the status, or when we might see these in REI ?

wetbeaverlover · Post by **wetbeaverlover** » Apr 26 2006 7:58 pm

The main reason that I LOVE the wilderness is the escape from technology, ie cell phones , television, computers, asphault and automobiles and all the trappings of the modern world ESPECIALLY SATILITES. I guess the day I need space age technology to enjoy the wilderness I'll just save the wear and tear on my knees and sit on couch fumbling with my TV remote control. If i should happen to die in the wilderness due to some unfortunate incident then, so be it, at least I will have died doing what I love in a place that I treasure..and as a bonus for you wildlife lovers, my large sized carcass could probably feed a family of 4 coyotes for a week : king :

Al_HikesAZ · Post by **Al_HikesAZ** » Apr 26 2006 9:49 pm

RedRoxx44 wrote:For me, I sometimes go out without a map, compass or anything. And off trail. . . . I like to study the land, the sky etc. A lot of times it will tell you where you are. I got separated from a group up on the Mongollon rim last year. I guided myself by the setting sun to a road and hiked out. Hooked up with them on the road.

I hate to be rude, but I will be - You are getting off topic here. A PLB is not a guidance device. A PLB is for life or death emergencies. I too like to study the land and sky for guidance. A PLB is about as useful as a brick for guidance. If you want to rant against GPS devices and compasses, start a new topic.

Al_HikesAZ · Post by **Al_HikesAZ** » Apr 26 2006 10:08 pm

wetbeaverlover wrote:The main reason that I LOVE the wilderness is the escape from technology, ie cell phones , television, computers, asphault and automobiles and all the trappings of the modern world ESPECIALLY SATILITES.

I agree. The cell phone is turned off and I get as far from automobiles etc. as I can. A PLB is about as useful a technology as a brick - until you need it in a life or death emergency. And then I will use any technology that I can, even if it is as primitive as rubbing two sticks together to make a fire. You can't escape satellites, (unless you are spelunking). Even if you deny their existence, they do exist. But that's a Phenomenological debate that we should probably take to PhenomenologyArizona.com not HikeArizona.com

plz:

If i should happen to die in the wilderness due to some unfortunate incident then, so be it, at least I will have died doing what I love in a place that I treasure..

NOBODY DIES ON MY WATCH! If you are hiking with me, I will do everything in my power to keep you alive. Someone somewhere cares about you maybe more than you care about yourself. If you have a death wish when you are hiking, you and I will not be hiking together so maybe it doesn't matter. I only enjoy hiking with people who love life and want to live, WHICH IS THE REASON I CARRY THE PLB. And I will do everything that I can to make sure they live. But we should probably take this to PsychologyArizona.com not HikeArizona.com

RedRoxx44 · Post by **RedRoxx44** » Apr 27 2006 5:00 am

It's technology vs anti-technology you could say. So sorry I lumped all of it together. I understand the PLB is for survival only. IMO if you go off trail or hike under adverse conditions be prepared to get yourself out, not rely on a device. I understand it is good for some people to have, especially if you are with a group, to allow SAR to find you in a timely manner. Less waste of resources too covering a huge area.
As with everything, if you push a button and it doesn't work, will you sit and wait, and what then??? I think that is my main concern. If it gets lost out of your pack, from your person. Say it is you that falls 300 feet off a cliff, and your group cannot get to you and said device. I know it is the doom and gloom approach, you could say what if to anything.

That is just my point.

IMO this forum is good to express opinions, and mine is if the PLB is good for many hiking out there so be it. Use it. But don't think it is a fail safe when something happens.

joebartels · Post by **joebartels** » Apr 27 2006 7:28 am

I don't see anything off topic about disagreeing with functionality, usefulness or offering alternative methods. It enlightens others to see various view points.

Seems it would be more useful if it had a self rescue mode. A mode where the user could switch to knowing he/she was responsible for checking in with the unit. Say if the unit didn't move for 12 hours and the "check in" button hadn't been pushed in 12 hours either.

Nighthiker · Post by **Nighthiker** » Apr 27 2006 8:11 am

Excellent idea Joe. In the fire service we have a device that we can manual activate or it can automatically activate if we don't /can't move to alert other firefighters for help.

The PLB could incorporate the automatic alert signal with an audible prealert to remind the user that an alarm signal will be transmitted unless the user resets the PLB.

Al_HikesAZ · Post by **Al_HikesAZ** » Apr 27 2006 8:38 am

joe bartels wrote:Seems it would be more useful if it had a self rescue mode. A mode where the user could switch to knowing he/she was responsible for checking in with the unit. Say if the unit didn't move for 12 hours and the "check in" button hadn't been pushed in 12 hours either.

Great idea.
My guess -- and it's strictly a an unsupported guess -- is that the Coast Guard vetoed this idea for the first generation of PLBs. They are the first responders. Since this is a new technology for civilian use, they probably were worried about false alarms and did not allow this mechanism. I would suspect that after they have 5 years of data on valid alerts and false alarms that they may allow this to be incorporated into second generation models. And I doubt that the manufacturers would have objected to building some planned obsolescence into their first gen models.

=;

If anybody on the forum has used the military versions, I am curious if the military versions have this auto-rescue mode. I would guess that pilots would need this or maybe it just activates when the ejection seat is pushed.

Al_HikesAZ · Post by **Al_HikesAZ** » Apr 27 2006 9:29 am

RedRoxx44 wrote:As with everything, if you push a button and it doesn't work, will you sit and wait, and what then??? I think that is my main concern.

IMO this forum is good to express opinions, and mine is if the PLB is good for many hiking out there so be it. Use it. But don't think it is a fail safe when something happens.

I agree with you 100%. I won't rely on it. I view it as another tool in my survival toolkit. The basics still apply. I will continue to react as if it didn't exist. If it cuts down SAR response time, that is good. If it doesn't work, I will be no worse off. I will still proceed with the basics and go by the book. First aid, comfort & necessities then extraction. In a large enough group we will get organized and then plan as if it didn't exist.

wetbeaverlover · Post by **wetbeaverlover** » Apr 27 2006 9:39 am

In response to al1inaz's reply: NO, I don't have a death wish, and yes, I am quite aware that satellites exist, thank you very much, however I don't live in such fear of the potential dangers of the wild lands that i am compelled to purchase a implement costing many hundreds of dollars, when common sense, careful planning and caution suits me quite nicely. Of course bad things can happen to ANYONE at anytime wheather or not you are in the wilderness or strolling around the fountain at Metrocenter. So do we all rush out and buy space age technology to shield us from all of lifes inherent dangers or do we recognize that wilderness is an unforgiving teacher and act accordingly and with the greatest respect for nature . Not trying to court controversy, It's just my opinion that common sense and prudent judgement are at least as effective as any plastic gizmo developed by the lowest bidder of a government contract. Touting this as a must have item (given the cost) for all hikers seems akin to advising that all Scottsdale soccer moms buy a Humvee to safely navigate through the traffic to get to their yoga session.

Al_HikesAZ · Post by **Al_HikesAZ** » Apr 27 2006 10:41 am

wetbeaverlover wrote:In response to al1inaz's reply:. . . It's just my opinion that common sense and prudent judgement are at least as effective as any plastic gizmo developed by the lowest bidder of a government contract.

I'll agree with you more than 100%. Common sense and prudent judgement are MUCH MORE effective than any plastic gizmo. I don't rely on this thing. It is another tool in my survival toolkit. I'm 54 and I do worry that I might have a stroke or heart attack. That is why I carry it for myself. If it works, great; If it doesn't work, I'm no worse off.

Touting this as a must have item (given the cost) for all hikers seems akin to advising that all Scottsdale soccer moms buy a Humvee to safely navigate through the traffic to get to their yoga session.

I never said it was a "must have (given the cost) for all hikers". You have no need for this if you are on established trails and/or have no exposure (in the technical sense) and/or numerous people will be on that trail in the next 24 hours and/or need $700 to make rent and car payments. I have carried it on only 5 of my 30 hikes since I got it in November. I didn't carry it last week in Sonoma, I won't carry it on Humphrey's Summit this week, these hikes are on trail and travelled by many people and not far from civilization. I don't know how to say this tactfully without seeming like a jerk, but recognize that some of us have money and enjoy toys.

I had it on one hike when a grandfather with a Boy Scout Troop had blown out his knee, was in intense pain and having difficulty moving. I did not use it. It was not "life or death". Two of us ran up to a saddle were we got cell phone reception and brought in the local SAR.

ps: Most Scottsdale soccer moms are now driving their HumVees to pilates instead of yoga. :badgrin:

JoelHazelton · Post by **JoelHazelton** » Apr 27 2006 11:16 am

I feel that no matter what anybody says now, once you are in an emergency life or death situation you are going to be thanking God or whomever that you have it. Regardless of how against integrating technology and nature you are, when someone cracks there head open or has a heart attack when you're backpacking with a group of people, you are going to hope that somebody has one of those little plastic gizmos.

azbackpackr · Post by **azbackpackr** » Apr 27 2006 11:49 am

I think if I could afford the gizmo I'd have one for the occasions when I do lead hikes for groups off trail or a long way from trailhead. As it is I go armed with a large first aid kit and a Wilderness First Responder certification.

I can't afford the beacon gizmo, nor can I even afford a cell phone, however. I used to be a soccer mom, but drive a 16 year old car and have no clue whatsoever what pilates are! (Don't care, either!)

Skills and knowledge come first, then all the tools follow. You can do first aid using items at hand if you know how. Tools are useful. I don't see any need to play the "good/bad, right/wrong" game here. If you want it and can afford it, buy it! But don't mix up owning tools with knowledge and skills of first aid, woodcraft, etc.

Davis2001r6 · Post by **Davis2001r6** » Apr 27 2006 4:51 pm

If i should happen to die in the wilderness due to some unfortunate incident then, so be it, at least I will have died doing what I love in a place that I treasure..

You know I was going to say the exact same thing. I'm not anti-technology or anything, but I just believe in being prepared. It's not about not wanting to live or being happy or anything like that. But I think that things happen for a reason and it's up to you adjust to those things.

I don't take too many unnecessary risks, but I like to explore as well. Whether it be climbing a little rock wall, checking out a cave, or taking a different line that might be a bit different from where everyone else is climbing up. I guess those are all unnecessary risks, for that matter hiking is an unecessary risk.

Is it necessary for me to go do hiking or backpacking twice a month? No, but that is what I enjoy and love doing, if something horrible should happen out of my control and I can't recover from it, then so be it. I guess it was just my time