Public Land

[wrangler0]

I have a question. can public land such as National forests,bureau of land management land,ect can they they be developed for housing and such?

Thanks

[cerebellum]

A Developer, His Deals and His Ties to McCain - New York Times
Donald R. Diamond, a wealthy Arizona real estate developer, was racing to snap up a stretch of virgin California coast freed by the closing of an Army base a decade ago when he turned to an old friend, Senator John McCain.

When Mr. Diamond wanted to buy land at the base, Fort Ord, Mr. McCain assigned an aide who set up a meeting at the Pentagon and later stepped in again to help speed up the sale, according to people involved and a deposition Mr. Diamond gave for a related lawsuit. When he appealed to a nearby city for the right to develop other property at the former base, Mr. Diamond submitted Mr. McCain's endorsement as ''a close personal friend.''
...

Courting local officials and potential partners, Mr. Diamond's team promised that he could ''help get through some of the red tape in dealing with the Department of the Army'' because Mr. Diamond ''has been very active with Senator McCain,'' a partner said in a deposition.

For Mr. McCain, the Arizona Republican who has staked two presidential campaigns on pledges to avoid even the appearance of dispensing an official favor for a donor, Mr. Diamond is the kind of friend who can pose a test.

A longtime political patron, Mr. Diamond is one of the elite fund-raisers Mr. McCain's current presidential campaign calls Innovators, having raised more than $250,000 so far. At home, Mr. Diamond is sometimes referred to as ''The Donald,'' Arizona's answer to Donald Trump -- an outsized personality who invites public officials aboard his flotilla of yachts (the Ace, King, Jack and Queen of Diamonds), specializes in deals with the government, and unabashedly solicits support for his business interestsfrom the recipients of his campaign contributions.
...

In California, the McCain aide's assistance with the Army helped Mr. Diamond complete a purchase in 1999 that he soon turned over for a $20 million profit. And Mr. McCain's letter of recommendation reinforced Mr. Diamond's selling point about his McCain connections as he pursued -- and won in 2005 -- a potentially much more lucrative deal to develop a resort hotel and luxury housing.

In Arizona, Mr. McCain has helped Mr. Diamond with matters as small as forwarding a complaint in a regulatory skirmish over the endangered pygmy owl, and as large as introducing legislation remapping public lands. In 1991 and 1994, Mr. McCain sponsored two laws sought by Mr. Diamond that resulted in providing him millions of dollars and thousands of acres in exchange for adding some of his properties to national parks. The Arizona senator co-sponsored a third similar bill now before the Senate.

...so money talks

[wrangler0]

A Developer, His Deals and His Ties to McCain - New York Times
Donald R. Diamond, a wealthy Arizona real estate developer, was racing to snap up a stretch of virgin California coast freed by the closing of an Army base a decade ago when he turned to an old friend, Senator John McCain.

When Mr. Diamond wanted to buy land at the base, Fort Ord, Mr. McCain assigned an aide who set up a meeting at the Pentagon and later stepped in again to help speed up the sale, according to people involved and a deposition Mr. Diamond gave for a related lawsuit. When he appealed to a nearby city for the right to develop other property at the former base, Mr. Diamond submitted Mr. McCain's endorsement as ''a close personal friend.''
...

Courting local officials and potential partners, Mr. Diamond's team promised that he could ''help get through some of the red tape in dealing with the Department of the Army'' because Mr. Diamond ''has been very active with Senator McCain,'' a partner said in a deposition.

For Mr. McCain, the Arizona Republican who has staked two presidential campaigns on pledges to avoid even the appearance of dispensing an official favor for a donor, Mr. Diamond is the kind of friend who can pose a test.

A longtime political patron, Mr. Diamond is one of the elite fund-raisers Mr. McCain's current presidential campaign calls Innovators, having raised more than $250,000 so far. At home, Mr. Diamond is sometimes referred to as ''The Donald,'' Arizona's answer to Donald Trump -- an outsized personality who invites public officials aboard his flotilla of yachts (the Ace, King, Jack and Queen of Diamonds), specializes in deals with the government, and unabashedly solicits support for his business interestsfrom the recipients of his campaign contributions.
...

In California, the McCain aide's assistance with the Army helped Mr. Diamond complete a purchase in 1999 that he soon turned over for a $20 million profit. And Mr. McCain's letter of recommendation reinforced Mr. Diamond's selling point about his McCain connections as he pursued -- and won in 2005 -- a potentially much more lucrative deal to develop a resort hotel and luxury housing.

In Arizona, Mr. McCain has helped Mr. Diamond with matters as small as forwarding a complaint in a regulatory skirmish over the endangered pygmy owl, and as large as introducing legislation remapping public lands. In 1991 and 1994, Mr. McCain sponsored two laws sought by Mr. Diamond that resulted in providing him millions of dollars and thousands of acres in exchange for adding some of his properties to national parks. The Arizona senator co-sponsored a third similar bill now before the Senate.

...so money talks

this stuff just makes me sick. Everyone including John McCain talk about being more environmentally friendly and going green but then he goes and helps this guy by up public national forest. Now after reading this im not sure if i would want john macain to be our president if he is just going to go and sell of land to developers to make a buck because who knows if he became president what he would start selling off. I know theres alot of people here in Arizona that never go hike,bike,kyake,ect but they have to relize that people use these lands and we need. Because who would want to go and drive from phoenix to any where and see nothing but houses its just sickening. Its just like before i brought up the topic about the superstition vistas. I love the drive to go out the some of the superstition trailheads because like 10 minutes out of the city there is no houses around just open space but now there going to go and just build sprawling houses its just gross wht arizona has become. Sorry for ranting on but thats just how i feel.

[JoelHazelton]

A Developer, His Deals and His Ties to McCain - New York Times
Donald R. Diamond, a wealthy Arizona real estate developer, was racing to snap up a stretch of virgin California coast freed by the closing of an Army base a decade ago when he turned to an old friend, Senator John McCain.

When Mr. Diamond wanted to buy land at the base, Fort Ord, Mr. McCain assigned an aide who set up a meeting at the Pentagon and later stepped in again to help speed up the sale, according to people involved and a deposition Mr. Diamond gave for a related lawsuit. When he appealed to a nearby city for the right to develop other property at the former base, Mr. Diamond submitted Mr. McCain's endorsement as ''a close personal friend.''
...

Courting local officials and potential partners, Mr. Diamond's team promised that he could ''help get through some of the red tape in dealing with the Department of the Army'' because Mr. Diamond ''has been very active with Senator McCain,'' a partner said in a deposition.

For Mr. McCain, the Arizona Republican who has staked two presidential campaigns on pledges to avoid even the appearance of dispensing an official favor for a donor, Mr. Diamond is the kind of friend who can pose a test.

A longtime political patron, Mr. Diamond is one of the elite fund-raisers Mr. McCain's current presidential campaign calls Innovators, having raised more than $250,000 so far. At home, Mr. Diamond is sometimes referred to as ''The Donald,'' Arizona's answer to Donald Trump -- an outsized personality who invites public officials aboard his flotilla of yachts (the Ace, King, Jack and Queen of Diamonds), specializes in deals with the government, and unabashedly solicits support for his business interestsfrom the recipients of his campaign contributions.
...

In California, the McCain aide's assistance with the Army helped Mr. Diamond complete a purchase in 1999 that he soon turned over for a $20 million profit. And Mr. McCain's letter of recommendation reinforced Mr. Diamond's selling point about his McCain connections as he pursued -- and won in 2005 -- a potentially much more lucrative deal to develop a resort hotel and luxury housing.

In Arizona, Mr. McCain has helped Mr. Diamond with matters as small as forwarding a complaint in a regulatory skirmish over the endangered pygmy owl, and as large as introducing legislation remapping public lands. In 1991 and 1994, Mr. McCain sponsored two laws sought by Mr. Diamond that resulted in providing him millions of dollars and thousands of acres in exchange for adding some of his properties to national parks. The Arizona senator co-sponsored a third similar bill now before the Senate.

...so money talks

this stuff just makes me sick. Everyone including John McCain talk about being more environmentally friendly and going green but then he goes and helps this guy by up public national forest. Now after reading this im not sure if i would want john macain to be our president if he is just going to go and sell of land to developers to make a buck because who knows if he became president what he would start selling off. I know theres alot of people here in Arizona that never go hike,bike,kyake,ect but they have to relize that people use these lands and we need. Because who would want to go and drive from phoenix to any where and see nothing but houses its just sickening. Its just like before i brought up the topic about the superstition vistas. I love the drive to go out the some of the superstition trailheads because like 10 minutes out of the city there is no houses around just open space but now there going to go and just build sprawling houses its just gross wht arizona has become. Sorry for ranting on but thats just how i feel.

I have a feeling there are several people who couldn't care less about what they see between here and Tucson, Prescott, Gila Bend, Congress, or wherever. Then again, there are people who say they care so much about it, but when it comes to their half acre on the outskirts of town with all the conveniences of urban living, they WANT WANT WANT! (and how does urban sprawl happen, again?) At least those ones who admit their own standard of living is more important than open spaces aren't lying to themselves. But... I haven't quite established myself financially, so who knows how my views will change one I get MONEY! I'm simply an observer at this point in my life ;)

p.s. I'm not trying to call anybody out or accuse anybody here. Just a collection of opinions I've developed based off of research, observation, and thinking (which I tend to do a lot of).

[joebartels]

True honesty is a scary subject for most activist. If anybody is not happy with the system they should actually do something about it or leave the country. Pissing and moaning while living the double standard is a disgrace.

[Jeffshadows]

Do every little thing you can. Set the example. You'll be amazed how many people will follow.

[joebartels]

Absolutely
Just do mankind a favor and create a solution, not a cult. They aren't working.

[cerebellum]

I just can't resist........ TBird Park. The city council me with Conservation Master Plans. Lately though the "executive house" fairy raised her magic wand and now every plot of Tbird park land is having $x,000,000 executive homes erected on them. For those that don't know, these are large homes with big yards, arranged a__hole to belly button. I wonder where will the kids play. Where are the trees to climb. The horses to ride and feed. The barns to clean.

"The Thunderbird Conservation Park Master Plan will identify the community’s vision and priorities for future care and management of this natural resource."
but.....I smell the $$$$$$$$$$$ sign and I see the park shrinking

[wrangler0]

I want to really start or get involved in helping to conserve land and stop development from taking up the reaming open land in the state so if anyone has suggestions or wants to start getting involved please tell me

[PaleoRob]

I want to really start or get involved in helping to conserve land and stop development from taking up the reaming open land in the state so if anyone has suggestions or wants to start getting involved please tell me

Read The Monkey Wrench Gang.

[joebartels]

:roll:

[PaleoRob]

Hehehe.

Seriously, there was a thread around here recently about Arizona conservation organizations; that should put you on the right track.

[Jeffshadows]

:roll:

As long as there's a profit to be made from the destruction and degradation of natural areas and open spaces we should count on the fact that it will continue to happen. That's a reality of a capitalist nation in which we live. Legislation will never be passed that will off-set this fact in any meaningful way. It was once said that if "It costs a company 500 dollars a day in fines to make five million dollars improperly handling toxic waste, it's just good business to continue to pay the fines." We have to face the fact that this will never change as long as America is America.

About seven months ago I was alone on the trail one evening coming down Pima Canyon and I came up to the trailhead, which was also empty. On the foothills above the trail stood the framed skeleton of a soon to be multi-million dollar villa that would block views for generations to come. Radiating outward was a swath of bare ground, once pristine desert, razed to build this abomination. I have a gas can and flares in my truck nearby. I could have easily walked over there and set that awful, bed-ridden sore on the face of the Sonoran Desert alight and never worried about it destroying anything but the target. I probably never would have been caught. I might have even felt a little better about myself for the trouble.

The reality is I would have done irreparable damage to my cause and helped the idiot who built that thing. He would have had his insurance pay to rebuild back to where he was; and would have become even more self-righteous in the notion that "he's right" and all conservationists are "kooks." The media would spin stories about "eco-terrorists" and the true voices of conservation would become even more stifled as they were filed into the same category as the "Nuts who burned down that house in Pima Canyon." The next time a ballot initiative came up concerning conservation, SAHBA would post pictures of the burned structure and a family crying in front of it all over the front page of the Daily Star and talk about how the fire killed dozens of helpless Glia Monsters, so we shouldn't side with "eco-kooks." The great unwashed masses would never see beyond this audacious propaganda (As has been the case for as long as people have been people), and would vote the initiative down, allowing SAHBA and their cronies to build a highway up to the end of Sabino Canyon for their new golf community, or whatever.

Instead of going to the truck for the implements of arson, I dumped the bag of trash I picked up off the trail in the bin.

[joebartels]

As long as there's a profit to be made from the destruction and degradation of natural areas and open spaces we should count on the fact that it will continue to happen. That's a reality of a capitalist nation in which we live. Legislation will never be passed that will off-set this fact in any meaningful way. It was once said that if "It costs a company 500 dollars a day in fines to make five million dollars improperly handling toxic waste, it's just good business to continue to pay the fines." We have to face the fact that this will never change as long as America is America.

Abbeyism is clearly to blame. It's a disgrace people bow to his bully tactics like he's a hero. It doesn't work, it creates other hidden issues not mention it's simply immoral.
You can accept it, not me - no thanks. Back to square one "set the example".

Do every little thing you can. Set the example. You'll be amazed how many people will follow.

Albeit low key you pulled through! Imagine if you started believing in yourself and had ten million followers.

I know you don't accept it. You hesitantly danced around it in the other thread. Just because you don't have an answer doesn't mean you have to accept or try justifying the wrong.

[wrangler0]

:roll:

As long as there's a profit to be made from the destruction and degradation of natural areas and open spaces we should count on the fact that it will continue to happen. That's a reality of a capitalist nation in which we live. Legislation will never be passed that will off-set this fact in any meaningful way. It was once said that if "It costs a company 500 dollars a day in fines to make five million dollars improperly handling toxic waste, it's just good business to continue to pay the fines." We have to face the fact that this will never change as long as America is America.

About seven months ago I was alone on the trail one evening coming down Pima Canyon and I came up to the trailhead, which was also empty. On the foothills above the trail stood the framed skeleton of a soon to be multi-million dollar villa that would block views for generations to come. Radiating outward was a swath of bare ground, once pristine desert, razed to build this abomination. I have a gas can and flares in my truck nearby. I could have easily walked over there and set that awful, bed-ridden sore on the face of the Sonoran Desert alight and never worried about it destroying anything but the target. I probably never would have been caught. I might have even felt a little better about myself for the trouble.

The reality is I would have done irreparable damage to my cause and helped the idiot who built that thing. He would have had his insurance pay to rebuild back to where he was; and would have become even more self-righteous in the notion that "he's right" and all conservationists are "kooks." The media would spin stories about "eco-terrorists" and the true voices of conservation would become even more stifled as they were filed into the same category as the "Nuts who burned down that house in Pima Canyon." The next time a ballot initiative came up concerning conservation, SAHBA would post pictures of the burned structure and a family crying in front of it all over the front page of the Daily Star and talk about how the fire killed dozens of helpless Glia Monsters, so we shouldn't side with "eco-kooks." The great unwashed masses would never see beyond this audacious propaganda (As has been the case for as long as people have been people), and would vote the initiative down, allowing SAHBA and their cronies to build a highway up to the end of Sabino Canyon for their new golf community, or whatever.

Instead of going to the truck for the implements of arson, I dumped the bag of trash I picked up off the trail in the bin.

isn't pima canyon a wilderness area? and one other question. towns and cities that are in national forests like Payson . Are they only allowed to build in there city limits. like they can grow any bigger than they are now?
I just dont understand when people are going to learn that they need to conserve land so much

[Jeffshadows]

The access corridor to Pima canyon is owned by Pima County Parks & Rec. Parcels around have been private property for over 100 years and were sold by inheritors to developers who subdivided and conquered. We desperately need a federal law protecting recreation access corridors and footprints. Were it not for the hard work of some great folks here on the County Board of Supervisors, Pima might be hard as heck to get to right now...

[wrangler0]

The access corridor to Pima canyon is owned by Pima County Parks & Rec. Parcels around have been private property for over 100 years and were sold by inheritors to developers who subdivided and conquered. We desperately need a federal law protecting recreation access corridors and footprints. Were it not for the hard work of some great folks here on the County Board of Supervisors, Pima might be hard as heck to get to right now...

Thanks just wondering.

[PaleoRob]

As long as there's a profit to be made from the destruction and degradation of natural areas and open spaces we should count on the fact that it will continue to happen. That's a reality of a capitalist nation in which we live. Legislation will never be passed that will off-set this fact in any meaningful way. It was once said that if "It costs a company 500 dollars a day in fines to make five million dollars improperly handling toxic waste, it's just good business to continue to pay the fines." We have to face the fact that this will never change as long as America is America.

Abbeyism is clearly to blame. It's a disgrace people bow to his bully tactics like he's a hero. It doesn't work, it creates other hidden issues not mention it's simply immoral.
You can accept it, not me - no thanks. Back to square one "set the example".

Do every little thing you can. Set the example. You'll be amazed how many people will follow.

Albeit low key you pulled through! Imagine if you started believing in yourself and had ten million followers.

I know you don't accept it. You hesitantly danced around it in the other thread. Just because you don't have an answer doesn't mean you have to accept or try justifying the wrong.

Coincidentally I'm looking for a publisher for a book about this very subject of the push-pull between the extremes of conservation views. Anyone know anyplace looking for a novel on that topic?

[wrangler0]

As long as there's a profit to be made from the destruction and degradation of natural areas and open spaces we should count on the fact that it will continue to happen. That's a reality of a capitalist nation in which we live. Legislation will never be passed that will off-set this fact in any meaningful way. It was once said that if "It costs a company 500 dollars a day in fines to make five million dollars improperly handling toxic waste, it's just good business to continue to pay the fines." We have to face the fact that this will never change as long as America is America.

Abbeyism is clearly to blame. It's a disgrace people bow to his bully tactics like he's a hero. It doesn't work, it creates other hidden issues not mention it's simply immoral.
You can accept it, not me - no thanks. Back to square one "set the example".

Do every little thing you can. Set the example. You'll be amazed how many people will follow.

Albeit low key you pulled through! Imagine if you started believing in yourself and had ten million followers.

I know you don't accept it. You hesitantly danced around it in the other thread. Just because you don't have an answer doesn't mean you have to accept or try justifying the wrong.

Coincidentally I'm looking for a publisher for a book about this very subject of the push-pull between the extremes of conservation views. Anyone know anyplace looking for a novel on that topic?

You wrote a book?

[PaleoRob]

You wrote a book?

9/10ths of the way done - at the stage where looking for a publisher is a good idea, so I've been told.

[wrangler0]

is there anyway i could read some of it?