Speed Cameras

[desert spirit]

Apparently the solution to the states economic crisis is going to be the millions and millions of dollars generated by those #@$%%##$@!# speed cameras.

When I first started driving, my daddy sat me down and revealed to me a fool-proof method of making sure I never got nailed by traffic cops or traffic cameras or anything else.

"Hayley", he said to me, "If you follow this secret, you'll never have to worry about those things."

And here is the secret ...

Don't speed.

And what do you know? His secret method has worked! I've never gotten a speeding ticket in my life.

[azdesertfather]

Has anyone else on here ever driven in Southeast Asia? That's where all of this "the laws are negotiable" stuff inevitably leads...

I hear ya! You haven't experienced totally optional traffic laws until you've traveled in India. I've traveled in a few rough countries, but that place takes the cake!

[Hoffmaster]

Has anyone else on here ever driven in Southeast Asia? That's where all of this "the laws are negotiable" stuff inevitably leads...

What about Mexico? (not Rocky Point) Do they even have traffic laws there? I spent a few days visiting some friends in Hermosillo, and every time we drove around that city, I thought I was going to die. It was so much fun!

What exactly is the point of this thread? Cameras, no cameras, whatever. People are going to speed. And people are going to go the speed limit (or slower ). You're not going to change the world with insight like "not speeding prevents getting speeding tickets." Really? Is that what we've been missing all this time? I speed every single time I drive. Not criminally, usually; but at least ten over. I'm not in a hurry, usually; I just like to go fast. How many camera tickets have I gotten? Zero. I just slow down before I get to it. Another reason why speed cameras are a dumb idea.

Why are we talking about this? Now that I'm out of state, I live vicariously through you guys. Stop talking about speed cameras and go climb Baboquivari already.

[Jeffshadows]

It's something to do while chained to the desk at work, I guess...

[Hoffmaster]

I should get a job then.

[Jeffshadows]

HAZ is a great distraction throughout the day, that's for sure!!

[SuperstitionGuy]

My wife was in the intersection, stopped and preparing to turn left when the traffic was clear. Another driver exceeding the speed limit was going past her on the right when the red light camera activitated.

Guess who was sent the ticket. Yes, my wife, who's car was standing dead still!
So much for red light and speeding cameras....

[writelots]

The reverse example of photo radar is Arizona's DUI law. I think we all agree that drinking and driving is a terrible thing and can have unbelievable consequences. However, the current law allows a cop to cite you without the aid of a computer (no blood, urine, breath test required) simply by claiming that you were "impaired to the slightest degree" based on his subjective viewpoint (which usually involves a field sobriety test, which any nervous person can fail). If you try to fight this charge in court, you will likely lose because who will the court believe, a professional law officer, or a private citizen motorist?

I just got done with traffic school for a routine photo radar citation (btw, my first speeding ticket in more than 20 years of driving). When they were reviewing the DUI/DWI laws, I was flabergasted. We're not even just talking about drinking - if you've taken antihistamines, decongestants, or perscription medication. If that officer thinks you're imparied, you're impaired. You don't have to have ANY alcohol in your blood. $1450 fine, 1 year suspended license, 1 year on the in-car enforcement at your expense. Potentially ruining your livlihood and branding you a felon (if you have a child in the car, it automaticallly becomes a felony) - on the judgement of one person with no requirement of hard evidence. That scares me.

I have accumulated a whopping 0 speeding tickets as well. But I'm still anti speed camera - for most offenders they don't get any negative reinforcement until the ticket arrives in the mail. Not the same as getting pulled over and feeling the immediate sting and embarrassment.

I couldn't agree more. I don't care how many people review the photos taken by the automated system - without someone pulling you over and talking with you about the situation, it just isn't as effective. Most people at my class spent the whole time arguing with the instructor because they either didn't believe they were guilty or they did even remember when the "photo" was taken. I would estimate that 60% were not convinced even after the class that they'd committed a crime. That's a discussion they need to have on the spot, with the officer.

Now, as to why people pay the ticket, or pay for the school, even when they believe it's in the wrong because they don't want to be bothered with defending themselves in court - that's a whole different problem. Stand up for yourselves!

[Jeffshadows]

I have to say that there should be a "Do not pass 'GO'" policy for DUI. If you get stopped and you are reasonably suspected of being beyond the legal limit: You should immediately be taken to the city or county facility most applicable, given a blood-alcohol content test, and immediately jailed for one month if it comes back over the limit. The prescription issue is not so clear, but alcohol and amphetamines or other illicit drugs should qualify for this policy. Think of all of the senseless tragedies that could be avoided if we took a harder stance...

[hikeaz]

I have to say that there should be a "Do not pass 'GO'" policy for DUI. If you get stopped and you are reasonably suspected of being beyond the legal limit: You should immediately be taken to the city or county facility most applicable, given a blood-alcohol content test, and immediately jailed for one month if it comes back over the limit. The prescription issue is not so clear, but alcohol and amphetamines or other illicit drugs should qualify for this policy. Think of all of the senseless tragedies that could be avoided if we took a harder stance...

Hmmmm.... What about the Magna Carta - Due Process and the 14th Amendment?

[Jeffshadows]

Due process is not violated in this case. You are either intoxicated with alcohol or an illicit substance or you are not. There are not mitigating circumstances to be considered. There is no need for a trial. Will this ever happen? Heck no, it's just one opinion by a person whose employer sees a lot of the after-effects of DUI-relayed accidents here in town.

[Davis2001r6]

I'm not going to lie, I tend to drive over the speed limit. Before the cameras I used to set my cruise at 73mph on the 20 mile ride out to the base. Now that a few cameras are there I set it at 68mph. Maybe it takes me another minute or two to get to work, but I've noticed a substantial increase in gas mileage if you believe it or not.

As for big brother watching, I could care less, I having nothing to hide. You say the cameras will be able to scan thousands of plates and hour. Good maybe they track down some felons or other criminals. Wow the same guy their looking for drives down XY street everyday between 6:40 and 7am, maybe that will lead to catching him.

As for the comments about Chicago...... Sure you might get passed by someone going 85mph, but it will also take you an hour to go 10-15 miles in rush hour. Oh, plus you can pay $.75 each way on the way to work for the tolls. I don't miss driving there at all.

-TIM-

[hikeaz]

Due process is not violated in this case. You are either intoxicated with alcohol or an illicit substance or you are not. There are not mitigating circumstances to be considered. There is no need for a trial. Will this ever happen? Heck no, it's just one opinion by a person whose employer sees a lot of the after-effects of DUI-relayed accidents here in town.

Are you SERIOUS?!
Due Process insures (among other rights) that you a) have a chance to meet your accuser b) refute any (so called) evidence against you.
So, you think that the police and their machines are infallible? After you read the following you will understand WHY there is due process under the law and why our laws do not allow the police to be judge, jury AND executioner.



"Thousands of Tucson DUI cases could get tossed
59 commentsNov. 10, 2008 06:17 AM
Associated Press
TUCSON - A problem with software inside a breathalyzer machine used by Tucson-area law enforcement could lead to thousands of driving under the influence cases being tossed, a defense attorney said.

A dozen years ago, about 5,000 cases within a few months were dismissed after prosecutors agreed the breath-test device, the RBT IV, manufactured by Intoximeters Inc., based in St. Louis, was faulty.
Those numbers could easily be surpassed if one of the current alcohol detectors in Arizona, the Intoxilyzer 8000, is found to be unreliable, said Tucson defense attorney James Nesci.
"This is going to be huge," Nesci said, because the current machine is widely used statewide as opposed to the older device, which was used in Tucson and at a smaller agency.

Tucson police made 5,963 DUI arrests in 2007-08, though not all of those resulted from using the Intoxilyzer. Tucson police replaced the RBT IV with an older version of the 8000, CMI's Intoxilyzer 5000, which had been shelved. Tucson police started using the 8000 model Dec. 1, 2006.

Most Arizona law-enforcement agencies use the Intoxilyzer 8000, experts said.

Neither the state Department of Public Safety nor the Governor's Office of Highway Safety claimed to know how many agencies use the device. Agency spokesmen referred a Tucson Citizen reporter to the other agency.

According to CMI Inc., the Owensboro, Ky., maker of the Intoxilyzer 8000, documents filed by prosecutors, eight states, three police departments and one other governmental agency use the Intoxilyzer 8000. It is approved for use in six other states and three other governmental agencies.

Pima County Superior Court Judge Deborah Bernini gave CMI Inc. until Monday to turn over the software source code in an electronic form.

So far, CMI has declined to divulge the code, despite court orders across the country.

Defense attorneys say it will show that the device is error-prone.

Dozens of DUI cases have been thrown out in local courts because of CMI's refusal to hand over the source code. Several city court judges and county justices of the peace have tossed out the breath-test evidence, which in turn led to prosecutors dismissing the charges.

By refusing to obey court orders, the company has racked up more than $1 million in fines issued by Florida courts, records show.

CMI President Toby Hall didn't return phone calls for comment.

Deputy Pima County Attorney Robin Schwartz told Bernini she didn't think the state could force CMI to reveal the code.

Bernini also set a Nov. 24 hearing for Hall to appear and explain why she shouldn't hold him and CMI in contempt for refusing to comply with her orders.

CMI has said it will give up the code, on paper, if the recipient signs a nondisclosure agreement.

Defense attorneys have refused to do so.

"The software has been tested by (the Arizona Department of Public Safety) and the federal government a bazillion times, all kinds of tests, and it's been found to be fine," Chief Criminal Deputy Pima County Attorney David Berkman said.

The Tucson Police Department declined to comment because the Intoxilyzer 8000 case is being litigated."

[Jeffshadows]

I've stated my opinion on this matter. Feel free to completely disagree.

[big_load]

AZ is now exporting its insanity to NJ. The following is happening now in Newark and a handful of other towns:

Redflex Traffic Systems Inc., a company based in Phoenix, will spend $100,000 to $150,000 per intersection to install the cameras, and then will receive $34 of each ticket paid.

Who said crime doesn't pay? The trick is to make money from somebody else's crime.

[dysfunction]

Don't blame AZ.. it started in Europe. Germany had them when I was a kid, the UK in the late 80's...


Last time I was in Jersey though, I got rear ended and the bas88** ehhhhh idiot took off... I was told that was pretty common there.

[joebartels]

They had it on McDonald Road between Tatum and Invergordon back in 1987.

[JimmyLyding]

Photo radar has been in the Town of Paradise Valley for many years now

[Jeffshadows]

This reminds me of a scene in that movie Liar, Liar wherein one of Carrey's "clients" is calling asking for legal advice after having just committed an armed robbery. His secretary says the client wants to know "what to do" so he grabs the handset and screams: "Stop breaking the law, a*****e!!"

[DarthStiller]

I just had to do the traffic school thing yesterday due to a recent speeding ticket (non-camera). The most interesting thing I learned was that if you get a photo-ticket from the DPS trucks, there are no points on your license for that. It's considered "wasting finite resources", a very old, obsolete legal term but on the books in the 70s having to do with the energy crisis at that time. they did this due to the fact that the 200 trucks in operation have the ability to generate 16 million tickets per year based on the rate they give them out. Court dates would be 10 years out. So they just fine you. if you dont pay, it just gets sent to a collection agency. This applies only in the case of non-criminal speeding (20mph over the posted limit OR 85mph, 85 or more is automatic criminal speeding regardless of the posted limit).

Now, if a DPS cops pulls you over, you get points. This brings up a constitional problem in terms of equal protection under the law. the same offense will be punished differently depending on how you get caught. No one's fought it yet.

the DUI thing was also interesting. DUI is defined by Arizona law as having access to the keys and access to the car while drunk. technically, you can be arrested in your home while drunk for a DUI the way the law is written. they said people are routinely arrested in this state for DUI before they even get into their cars in places where there are alot of bars.

[Thoreau]

These are good arguments.

I don't think they are. How is this different from security cameras in banks or 7-11's? How is it different from grocery stores who track your purchases under the guise of giving you "discounts"? For that matter, how is it different from traffic cops themselves? All these things are "surveillance". If you're worried about being "watched" and your movements and tendencies tracked, then I'm afraid it's way too late for that.

The difference is massive. All of those examples are private property (save for the 'actual cops' part of course). It is also private property which you implicitly consent to such monitoring on by frequenting such establishments. You can choose to go elsewhere, and property owners' rights trump a LOT of other rights.

With a highway (which, by the way we all paid for, thus is public property) it isn't a private business imposing their will upon customers. It is the government (be it local, state, or fed) imposing its will upon the citizens. Therein lies the problem.

In any case, freeway traffic cameras are such an obvious farce it isn't even funny. If speed was the cause of accidents then the Autobahn surely wouldn't be without speed limits. The issue isn't speed, it's morons that get licenses and have no clue how to properly operate a 2 ton rolling block of steel with a tank of explosive liquids attached underneath. Unfortunately, in this 'entitlement' society everyone thinks driving is a RIGHT, and would scream bloody murder at the government if they couldn't EASILY pass their driving exam and get a license to drive.

Wanna fix the real problem? Start putting responsibility back on the DRIVERS (citizens) instead of expecting big brother to legislate and regulate all our worries away. =)