Cairns, Summit Registers & Geocaches... in the Wilderness?

[imike]

I'm not sure if this issue has been raised, but I was wondering if the time honored practice of piling up trail markers should be reviewed and discontinued?

As more time and people visit the trails, there becomes more chances for the cairns to misdirect a hiker as to provide any useful aid. Further, it would be nice, especially off trail, to maintain some illusion of exploratory hiking with fresh discovery, in addition, leaving the aspect of original plotting, planning and route finding. Now, with the advent of GPS there are alternative means to secure routes, if desired. It would be nice to not be subject to prior presence, and prior error....

In the Wilderness areas, there are not supposed to be any man made objects... which in it's way suggests the issue is already decided. I think it might be a benefit to hiking overall for this practice of recording the moment to be drawn to a close... and perhaps, the existing markers scattered to their original natural placements?

...thoughts?

[azbackpackr]

Well, most of the peaks where I see them you guys are never going to climb, since everyone knows the only reason to go hiking in the White Mtns. is to bag Baldy (which is why I avoid it.) God I love this place and its total lack of hikers!

[Jeffshadows]

I used to like to read what people write in them; they were usually things that people held back from public view...things that defined them. The register at Rincon Peak has "Lick my ----s!!" written in huge letters on six or eight of the pages. That was the last one I ever read.

[Moovyoaz]

I think a moderate amount of reasonably placed cairns are fine, and may just save someone's butt. I know they've saved mine when the trail fades out and the direction is unsure. That kind of 'Wilderness Experience' I can do without.

Seems to me totally removing all cairns falls into the category of things like voting for Democrats because you don't like the way Republicans run the country, or shooting yourself in the head to stop a headache.

Think about it; would you rather have more idiots wandering around lost in the woods, and have to pay to rescue them? Or have more of them crying for help using their SPOT unit because they are too stupid to know the top of a topo map is always north? I guess we could suggest they try using jelly beans instead.

Now the small 'Circlestones' that some people setup is another thing. Their time would be better spent moving a few rocks to the side of the trail.

[Sredfield]

Some of the log books in the old cabins are pretty interesting and entertaining (wouldn't you agree Deborah?). I read some fascinating stories in he one at Club Cabin about ten years ago, which is now lost to history. I wonder if the FS saved those books? I'll admit to having signed a few summit registers, but not lately. If they are not obtrusive I guess I don't mind a few here and there. Don't believe I've ever stumbled across a geocache tho.

[Mike_Fels]

When I see a cairn I think of it as a suggested path to take. I then assume it's my responsibility to evaluate that suggestion before committing myself. Some are misleading or even down right dangerous. But more times than not they have helped point me in the right direction. And a few have probably saved me. 3 or 4 rocks piled on top of each other is pretty innocuous. It sure beats the paint or ribbons some people choose to use.

Geocaches and registers I can gladly do without.

[imike]

They are just piles of rocks that can be unsightly, but do no real harm, and occasionally may save a life. Pete Cowgill, a founder of SAHC, is well known as a cairn-kicker. .

...whatever happened to Pete... I spent 5 weeks with him in the Grand Canyon about twelve years ago... lost touch a few years after that...

[azbackpackr]

Still cairn - kickin' as far as I know! He may be in the phone book in Tucson. I never knew him well, though I have met him.

[ssk44]

I don't mind a few cairns on vague trails or routes. I think summit registers are great. They tell a story. I personally think that geo-caching is rather silly but who am I to fault what someone else may consider fun. A metal can partially burred in a rock pile hardly ruins my backcountry experience. The only thing that truly burns me to no end is seeing used toilet paper littering a landscape. Cairns, summit registries, and geo-cashes are the least of our problems...

[Sredfield]

I don't mind a few cairns on vague trails or routes. I think summit registers are great. They tell a story. I personally think that geo-caching is rather silly but who am I to fault what someone else may consider fun. A metal can partially burred in a rock pile hardly ruins my backcountry experience. The only thing that truly burns me to no end is seeing used toilet paper littering a landscape. Cairns, summit registries, and geo-cashes are the least of our problems...

Well said.

Used TP, ya gotta ask yourself, What the h### were they thinking . . . Someone ELSE is going to clean it up?

[Jeffshadows]

I'll tell you what really bothers me - cigarette butts on the trail. Especially in the Catalinas!! [-X

[Sredfield]

When I see cigarette butts more than two miles from a TH, especially if it's up hill from the TH, I look around for the body.

[BobP]

Warning....warning.....warning....you will not get these 8 minutes of your life back........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FojtIkKrl-o

What does it have to do with this thread....you only have to waste 3 and a half minutes ;) or you can just fast forward but you may miss Joe's signature greeting and some Fray and Far references or maybe the Sasquatchin one...oh and water and snow and a bad director.

[fricknaley]

[Pathfinder Aaron]

There are some good points on this thread. I would have to agree with some that I could do without the registers and geocaches. I think they just seem to distract somewhat from the whole reason you're in these wilderness areas anyway, which is to really be there, experience what you can't in a city, and observe the scenery and wildlife. I think the geocache thing as it progresses could just turn in to a greater probability of running in to a pile of trash in the middle of a spectacular area. I don't want to see that stuff in these areas. Even small stuff bothers me when I see it, a cigarette butt, a small peice of plastic. Cairns on the otherhand have a place. I agree with the comments that they need to be few and far between. They should act as reinforcement, to let you know that you're on the right path. It's pretty rediculous when you see them placed every 20 feet on an obvious trail, "Thanks, I wasn't sure where to go." Just dumb. But there have been times when (even with a gps unit) I wasn't exactly sure where I was, and then I scan around for a couple minutes and off in the distance I see a small cairn that gets me back on track. I do think they can save lives... and just make the experience more enjoyable. It's not fun being lost, and for a lot of us, it's not the trailfinding that's attractive. So I think small well placed cairns have their place. However I have also come across a couple cairns that have led me astray, and I needed to backtrack because it was obvious they were not related to the trail. I scatter these usually. I don't think cairns diminish the experience all that much since it's usualy what's beyond the trail and to the sides that gives me awe anyway.l

[joebartels]

In response to Pathfinder Aaron:
You just crystallized my thoughts

In response to rlrjamy:
can I have my seven minutes and fifty nine seconds back

[BobP]

In response to rlrjamy:
can I have my seven minutes and fifty nine seconds back

Nope :sorrry: you were forewarned...

[johnlp]

The problem with geocaches is that, even if they are small and hidden which most are, everything around them gets trampled when people are searching for them. Not good in a wilderness area. It seems many registers are geocaches too. I opened the mailbox on Picketpost and all kinds of crap fell out. Cairns are nice when located in places where the trail disappears like creek crossings. Too many is a PIA. Check out the Cave trail in the Supes. Enough cairns for three separate trails.

[Jeffshadows]

I actually really enjoy path finding. I know this may not be the norm, but I really don't want every trail within a reasonable drive of my house to be so easy to follow as to present no challenge. I think land navigation skills, like basic survival skills, should be a prerequisite before anyone ventures more than a mile or two into the mountains. If you can't find your way on a trail that is well defined on a paper topo, maybe you were never meant to walk that trail. Cairns shouldn't be there to help you get yourself even further from safety in a situation like that. Just IMHO...

[imike]

I actually really enjoy path finding. I know this may not be the norm, but I really don't want every trail within a reasonable drive of my house to be so easy to follow as to present no challenge. I think land navigation skills, like basic survival skills, should be a prerequisite before anyone ventures more than a mile or two into the mountains. If you can't find your way on a trail that is well defined on a paper topo, maybe you were never meant to walk that trail. Cairns shouldn't be there to help you get yourself even further from safety in a situation like that. Just IMHO...

I agree... absolutely. What everyone is talking about is varying degrees of "safety"... and what they are comfortable with in regards an outdoor experience. Every incremental compromise will slowly eliminate the true nature and opportunity... from cairns, to signs, to hacked out trails, to pavement. Given enough time and enough people that potential for challenge and discovery will be gone. If safety is truly an issue: GPS and a pound of batteries... or, stay home.

[Jeffshadows]

I actually really enjoy path finding. I know this may not be the norm, but I really don't want every trail within a reasonable drive of my house to be so easy to follow as to present no challenge. I think land navigation skills, like basic survival skills, should be a prerequisite before anyone ventures more than a mile or two into the mountains. If you can't find your way on a trail that is well defined on a paper topo, maybe you were never meant to walk that trail. Cairns shouldn't be there to help you get yourself even further from safety in a situation like that. Just IMHO...

I agree... absolutely. What everyone is talking about is varying degrees of "safety"... and what they are comfortable with in regards an outdoor experience. Every incremental compromise will slowly eliminate the true nature and opportunity... from cairns, to signs, to hacked out trails, to pavement. Given enough time and enough people that potential for challenge and discovery will be gone. If safety is truly an issue: GPS and a pound of batteries... or, stay home.

Hear, hear!