Zuni Origins

[azbackpackr]

I went to a lecture and slide presentation last night at our local chapter of AZ Archaeological Soc, given by Dr. David Wilcox, of the Museum of Northern Arizona. Very entertaining and interesting talk. Here is his new book:
http://hikearizona.com/books.php?REV=1&ID=950

[big_load]

Interesting.

[Al_HikesAZ]

I've had an interest in the Ashiwi over time. Their language is an "isolate" - not related to any other Native American language.

According to Zuni mythology Ribbon Falls along the North Kaibab Trail is Chimik’yana’kya dey’a - their place of origin into this world. http://www.asu.edu/clas/grandcanyonhist ... _zuni.html

[azbackpackr]

Wilcox says the actual archaeology does not support Zuni oral tradition, but he is not ready to discount their tradition, he feels that it needs to be interpreted within a cultural context of which we may not really understand all the variables.

[Jim]

Wilcox says the actual archaeology does not support...tradition, ... he feels that it needs to be interpreted within a cultural context.

That reminds me of a lot things people believe about origins.

[PaleoRob]

Wilcox says the actual archaeology does not support...tradition, ... he feels that it needs to be interpreted within a cultural context.

That reminds me of a lot things people believe about origins.

Right on. It is interesting how many people believe that statement, but won't apply it to their own beliefs. As though it would only apply to "others".

[big_load]

I've been told that "history" does not support any relationship between the Hopis and the masonry-building cultures. I can't even start that discussion without stomping and spluttering and making vile gestures. Now I have to do some real studying so somebody else can take the blame for my reckless assertions.

[PaleoRob]

I've been told that "history" does not support any relationship between the Hopis and the masonry-building cultures.

???

[big_load]

???

You see? That's where all the stomping and spluttering starts.

[azbackpackr]

Ok, big_load, I am interpreting what you said as meaning that the Hopi assert that they are the true descendants of the Hisatsinom/Anasazi/Ancestral Puebloans.

The Anasazi were the people (probably of various tribes) who built Chaco, Mesa Verde, Keet Seel, and other masonry villages, which were built generally between AD 850-1200 and generally all abandoned by 1300 or 1400.

But are you saying the archaeology does nor does not support the Hopis' assertions? The Zunis also make these claims, and so do other modern pueblo tribes. I don't think any archaeology supports an exact link. And since the tribes no longer will allow DNA testing on human remains, how is anyone going to find out for sure?

Off topic a bit: DNA analysis shows that the Semitic peoples are not related to American Indians. There is a large group of people of a certain religion who dislike that finding and have had to do a semantic dance-and-scramble to justify it to themselves. Gee, I'm so heartbroken they allowed themselves to believe in something which is clearly a hoax.

DNA and skull analysis shows that the people of Easter Island are not, as Thor Heyerdahl tried to prove with his Kon-Tiki expedition, descendants of the Incas, but are in fact of Polynesian stock.

Some people with a dogma to defend, an ax to grind, a belief to hang onto, a myth to protect, will fight DNA testing because it might prove their pet beliefs are wrong wrong wrong...alas.

[big_load]

To clarify, the person who set me off claimed that "history" doesn't accept that any modern peoples are descended from the Anasazi; that they really did just vanish without a trace. The position taken implied that even the possibility of connection to the Hopis and Zunis ("the locals", he called them) is not taken seriously by anyone who matters.

[PaleoRob]

To clarify, the person who set me off claimed that "history" doesn't accept that any modern peoples are descended from the Anasazi; that they really did just vanish without a trace. The position taken implied that even the possibility of connection to the Hopis and Zunis ("the locals", he called them) is not taken seriously by anyone who matters.

Gottcha. Sounds like he may not be a person who matters? Correct?

[azbackpackr]

I think it's fairly logical there is a link. However, it is not logical that the Navajos were here at that time. There are many Navajos who believe they were down this far during the Anasazi times, but there is no evidence of it. They and the Apaches, who were once one tribe, came down from Canada. They are Athabaskans.

The people who think the Anasazi just mysteriously disappeared are kind of blind, don't you think? I mean, here we have all these different pueblos, mostly in New Mexico along the Rio Grande, and the Zunis and Hopis. Why would it be necessary to think they disappeared unless, again, they are trying to support the old myth of the mysterious Anasazi who vanished from the face of the earth. I don't think any archaeologist buys that. I think, though, they would like to establish direct links via scientific means. But the tribes won't allow DNA testing.

[big_load]

Sounds like he may not be a person who matters? Correct?

That was my conclusion. I started reflecting on the commonly-used names of eras, and the little I know about continuity of symbology, etc., and then just decided it just wasn't worth the trouble.

The people who think the Anasazi just mysteriously disappeared are kind of blind, don't you think?

Yes, the more I learn, the harder it is to believe. There isn't a lot of time between the end of occupation at the latest sites and the arrival of the Spanish. Could strangers have slipped in and adopted such a similar existence based only on the remains they found? It's not impossible, but it does seem implausible. I'm not surprised that the tribes object to testing. Maybe their views will change over time.

[azbackpackr]

Hopefully they will. It could really add to the knowledge.