Zuni Origins

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azbackpackr
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Zuni Origins

Post by azbackpackr » Mar 23 2010 1:03 pm

I went to a lecture and slide presentation last night at our local chapter of AZ Archaeological Soc, given by Dr. David Wilcox, of the Museum of Northern Arizona. Very entertaining and interesting talk. Here is his new book:
http://hikearizona.com/books.php?REV=1&ID=950
Last edited by azbackpackr on Mar 26 2010 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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big_load
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Re: Zuni Origins

Post by big_load » Mar 23 2010 1:08 pm

Interesting.

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Re: Zuni Origins

Post by Al_HikesAZ » Mar 23 2010 1:27 pm

I've had an interest in the Ashiwi over time. Their language is an "isolate" - not related to any other Native American language.

According to Zuni mythology Ribbon Falls along the North Kaibab Trail is Chimik’yana’kya dey’a - their place of origin into this world. http://www.asu.edu/clas/grandcanyonhist ... _zuni.html
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Re: Zuni Origins

Post by azbackpackr » Mar 23 2010 4:11 pm

Wilcox says the actual archaeology does not support Zuni oral tradition, but he is not ready to discount their tradition, he feels that it needs to be interpreted within a cultural context of which we may not really understand all the variables.
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Re: Zuni Origins

Post by Jim_H » Mar 26 2010 10:47 am

azbackpackr wrote:Wilcox says the actual archaeology does not support...tradition, ... he feels that it needs to be interpreted within a cultural context.
That reminds me of a lot things people believe about origins.
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Re: Zuni Origins

Post by PaleoRob » Mar 26 2010 11:52 am

Joad Cressbeckler wrote:
azbackpackr wrote:Wilcox says the actual archaeology does not support...tradition, ... he feels that it needs to be interpreted within a cultural context.
That reminds me of a lot things people believe about origins.
Right on. It is interesting how many people believe that statement, but won't apply it to their own beliefs. As though it would only apply to "others".
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Re: Zuni Origins

Post by big_load » Mar 26 2010 12:24 pm

I've been told that "history" does not support any relationship between the Hopis and the masonry-building cultures. I can't even start that discussion without stomping and spluttering and making vile gestures. Now I have to do some real studying so somebody else can take the blame for my reckless assertions.

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Re: Zuni Origins

Post by PaleoRob » Mar 26 2010 2:38 pm

big_load wrote:I've been told that "history" does not support any relationship between the Hopis and the masonry-building cultures.
???
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Re: Zuni Origins

Post by big_load » Mar 26 2010 2:42 pm

PageRob wrote:???
You see? That's where all the stomping and spluttering starts. :D

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Re: Zuni Origins

Post by azbackpackr » Mar 26 2010 3:12 pm

Ok, big_load, I am interpreting what you said as meaning that the Hopi assert that they are the true descendants of the Hisatsinom/Anasazi/Ancestral Puebloans.

The Anasazi were the people (probably of various tribes) who built Chaco, Mesa Verde, Keet Seel, and other masonry villages, which were built generally between AD 850-1200 and generally all abandoned by 1300 or 1400.

But are you saying the archaeology does nor does not support the Hopis' assertions? The Zunis also make these claims, and so do other modern pueblo tribes. I don't think any archaeology supports an exact link. And since the tribes no longer will allow DNA testing on human remains, how is anyone going to find out for sure?

Off topic a bit: DNA analysis shows that the Semitic peoples are not related to American Indians. There is a large group of people of a certain religion who dislike that finding and have had to do a semantic dance-and-scramble to justify it to themselves. Gee, I'm so heartbroken they allowed themselves to believe in something which is clearly a hoax.

DNA and skull analysis shows that the people of Easter Island are not, as Thor Heyerdahl tried to prove with his Kon-Tiki expedition, descendants of the Incas, but are in fact of Polynesian stock.

Some people with a dogma to defend, an ax to grind, a belief to hang onto, a myth to protect, will fight DNA testing because it might prove their pet beliefs are wrong wrong wrong...alas.
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Re: Zuni Origins

Post by big_load » Mar 26 2010 3:21 pm

To clarify, the person who set me off claimed that "history" doesn't accept that any modern peoples are descended from the Anasazi; that they really did just vanish without a trace. The position taken implied that even the possibility of connection to the Hopis and Zunis ("the locals", he called them) is not taken seriously by anyone who matters.

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Re: Zuni Origins

Post by PaleoRob » Mar 26 2010 3:25 pm

big_load wrote:To clarify, the person who set me off claimed that "history" doesn't accept that any modern peoples are descended from the Anasazi; that they really did just vanish without a trace. The position taken implied that even the possibility of connection to the Hopis and Zunis ("the locals", he called them) is not taken seriously by anyone who matters.
Gottcha. Sounds like he may not be a person who matters? Correct?
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Re: Zuni Origins

Post by azbackpackr » Mar 26 2010 3:28 pm

I think it's fairly logical there is a link. However, it is not logical that the Navajos were here at that time. There are many Navajos who believe they were down this far during the Anasazi times, but there is no evidence of it. They and the Apaches, who were once one tribe, came down from Canada. They are Athabaskans.

The people who think the Anasazi just mysteriously disappeared are kind of blind, don't you think? I mean, here we have all these different pueblos, mostly in New Mexico along the Rio Grande, and the Zunis and Hopis. Why would it be necessary to think they disappeared unless, again, they are trying to support the old myth of the mysterious Anasazi who vanished from the face of the earth. I don't think any archaeologist buys that. I think, though, they would like to establish direct links via scientific means. But the tribes won't allow DNA testing.
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Re: Zuni Origins

Post by big_load » Mar 26 2010 3:43 pm

PageRob wrote:Sounds like he may not be a person who matters? Correct?
That was my conclusion. :D I started reflecting on the commonly-used names of eras, and the little I know about continuity of symbology, etc., and then just decided it just wasn't worth the trouble.
azbackpackr wrote:The people who think the Anasazi just mysteriously disappeared are kind of blind, don't you think?
Yes, the more I learn, the harder it is to believe. There isn't a lot of time between the end of occupation at the latest sites and the arrival of the Spanish. Could strangers have slipped in and adopted such a similar existence based only on the remains they found? It's not impossible, but it does seem implausible. I'm not surprised that the tribes object to testing. Maybe their views will change over time.

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Re: Zuni Origins

Post by azbackpackr » Mar 26 2010 3:48 pm

Hopefully they will. It could really add to the knowledge.
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
A clean house is a sign of a misspent life.

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