Fossil Creek in Az Republic

[base871]

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... ation.html

Pretty good article about Fossil Creek today.

[hippiepunkpirate]

Most campers view an evening fire as essential to the outdoor experience.

Yeah, camp fires are cool but having to look at a fire ring every 25 feet is repulsive. Furthermore, I think being outdoors is essential to the outdoor experience. You would think that would be stating the obvious, but evidently not. I guess the general public cares more about cliff-diving and drinking beer than about the true value of nature.

[azbackpackr]

I guess the general public cares more about cliff-diving and drinking beer than about the true value of nature.

Not to mention roaring around tearing up the ground on ATVs and dirt bikes, etc. It's the thrill mentality. There is a whole segment of the population for whom the ideas of "quiet recreation" and "spiritual values of wilderness" have no appeal or personal meaning, mostly because they have no experience with these values, and no real way to get that experience, unless they have some sort of a personal epiphany.

[JoelHazelton]

Interesting that article was in the newspaper today... I just got back from Fossil Creek a couple hours ago. We stayed overnight downstream from the bridge (where it's legal, of course). Made sure to find a campsite an appropriate distance from the creek, and my brother brought a propane grill since campfires are prohibited. We did do a whole lot of cliff-diving and beer-drinking (HPP ;) ) but all cans were packed out.

I was amazed by the sheer numbers there... I guess I don't frequent popular swimming holes enough to be used to such mind-blowingly enormous crowds. There were huge traffic jams near the bridge area because of all the &*%$ %%&** #$@%s who park along both sides of the road and leave hardly one lane for vehicles to pass through. I jokingly suggested that my friend Ryan, who was passenger in my truck, hang out the window with a key and get all the parked cars in one long swoop. He didn't, but after learning they were parked illegally, not to mention selfishly and disrespectfully, I kind of wish he did. I'm disappointed to learn the ranger interviewed in the article was only handing out only warning tickets...

We opted to swim in the less-populated areas downstream near where we camped. While jumping off some cliffs yesterday, a couple of early-20's looking guys wandered to the creek, each drinking a beer and smoking a cigarette. Within a couple minutes they finished their beer and cigarettes, tossed them in a bush, and walked back out. Who the f*** does that? Walk to the creek just so you can throw your trash down then walk back to your already trashed campsite? If you insist on littering, at least do it in an area that already looks like hell.

As was expected, last night when we were shivering in our campsite with nothing but beers and a lantern to keep us warm (not that we weren't content with those), we saw a campfire about 1/4 mile away. Shocker plz: I was semi-pleased, however, when I went to the suspected fire ring this morning and saw the ashes soaking wet. They may have chopped down some nearby pinyons to make the illegal fire, but at least they didn't burn any more down by leaving smoldering coals.

I've been to incredibly popular swimming holes such as West Clear Creek #17, Bell Trail at Beaver Creek, Water Wheel hike at East Verde, Lower Salt River, Tanque Verde Falls, all the Salt River lakes, lower Fish Creek, and even several times to Fossil Springs (until about 5 years ago), and NEVER have I seen such a show of disrespect.

[Tough_Boots]

I think they should let the idiots do whatever they want at Fossil Creek. It'll keep them from looking for new places. Fossil might just have to take one for the team to keep other spots protected. I'm ok with sacrificing one place for the good of the others.

[chumley]

It's time for a permit system to manage the crowds. FREE permits, but limited numbers, and only upon agreement of understanding the rules in place to manage the area. Its simple. Access for everybody, but you have to plan ahead.

[base871]

I was down there last weekend at the dam, and it was pretty crowded. Although there was not really much trash, most of the torn down fire rings were rebuilt. Out of the 4 overnight groups last saturday, only one had a campfire.
So according to the article, is the flume trail now reopened?

+1 on the permit system. I dont think fossil creek should have to take one for the team. Glen Canyon took that one.

[hippiepunkpirate]

@azpride

Obviously you care about the true value of nature, and successfully drink beer and cliff dive without jeopardizing that value- cheers to you for that! Most people don't exhibit that capacity, although they very obviously have it.

[big_load]

It's sad that people can't enjoy a beautiful place in a less impactful way. I always avoided Fossil Creek because of the yahoos, but I hoped the recent changes would make it something I could enjoy, too. Maybe the site rehabilitation will inspire some changes in attitude, but I fear not.

[jimmyfish]

I feel that it is time to FULLY enforce the regulations. That means:
TOW all of the illegally parked vehicles.
MAX FINE for campsites and campfires inside the forest order boundary.
ARREST anyone who gets combative over the issue.

At least the word will get out. I can't believe how some people just can't READ!!

[joebartels]

Agreed. Even Squaw and South Mountain have rangers during high impact use.

Somehow the FS will never spend the money correct. They will waste money on literature, declarations and whatnot when serious spot monitoring is the key. An official has to monitor it. It doesn't need to be all year. Simply one ranger during the 3 peak summer holidays and perhaps an occasional weekend.

24 hours x 3 days (Friday noon to Monday Noon) x 3 holiday weekends = 216 hours
12 random 8hr, probably a Fri, Sat or Sun scattered from June-Sept, that's about once every other weekend = 96 hours

312 x $12(whatever a ranger makes?) = $3,744 of the best spent park money ever

[chumley]

You think 100 tickets could be written in those 312 hours? $100 fine for each? Only HALF the people actually PAY the fines .... $5,000 revenue. Net profit, $1,256!

[jimmyfish]

Response to email that I sent Coconino Forest office today:

Hi Jim and thanks for your questions. I'll try to answer:

We have essentially a zero tolerance policy when it comes to fires within our Fossil Closure area. It is well signed and there is no reason why someone would not know about it. As for camping in a no-camping zone, it is up to the discretion of the Forest Service officer, but we are enforcing that as hard as we can. We are writing many violation notices. If someone does not pay for thier ticket, there will be a warrent out for them. As for towing cars, it is very difficult to get a tow truck to go into Fossil, so we are hard pressed to enforce the parking violations that way.

Thanks for your interest in the area.


Jennifer Burns
Red Rock Ranger District
Recreation Staff Officer
8375 SR 179 Sedona, Arizona 86351
P.O. 20429 Sedona, Arizona 86341

Phone: 928-203-7529
Cell: 928-551-2559
Fax: 928-203-7539

[Al_HikesAZ]

Agreed. Even Squaw and South Mountain have rangers during high impact use.

Somehow the FS will never spend the money correct. They will waste money on literature, declarations and whatnot when serious spot monitoring is the key. An official has to monitor it. It doesn't need to be all year. Simply one ranger during the 3 peak summer holidays and perhaps an occasional weekend.

24 hours x 3 days (Friday noon to Monday Noon) x 3 holiday weekends = 216 hours
12 random 8hr, probably a Fri, Sat or Sun scattered from June-Sept, that's about once every other weekend = 96 hours

312 x $12(whatever a ranger makes?) = $3,744 of the best spent park money ever

GCNP makes extensive use of volunteers. My understanding is that they get Shirts, Caps and a campsite/dorm (if available). They receive some simple training. They check permits and call in the real Rangers if needed. FS should be able to deputize them sufficient for parking ticket assistance teamed with a Ranger. Some are great, a few let the power & authority go to their head - but I just might bring out that side of them.

[joebartels]

there will be a warrent out for them

A warrant for arrest by police or a warrant for payment by the Forest Service?

[chumley]

Response to email that I sent Coconino Forest office today

Could this be half the problem for Fossil Creek? It makes up the border of two national forests. Some parts of the road and parking areas are on the Tonto NF while others are on the Coconino. We've all witnessed the efficiency of the FS in action, I can only imagine how it works when two different administrative units must work together to establish rules and enforce them.

[jimmyfish]

I would assume a warrant by the County Sheriffs office

[chumley]

Its a federal ticket. It is issued by the United States Forest Service.

I am not aware of reciprocity between the federal government and the state which would make it show up on your state dmv/registration record. Nor do I know if it matters anyway since a federal parking ticket is not a moving violation like a speeding ticket.

(Such reciprocity exists between most states ... a speeding ticket in Texas will result in points on your Arizona license, etc.)

Of course the federal government and the state government of Arizona are best buds as far as enforcing each others' laws right now, so who knows... :roll:

[paulhubbard]

It really is a shame that people don't seem to realize that it's so easy to leave a place cleaner than how you found it. We hiked down the trail to the upper part of Fossil Creek two weeks ago and found a whole bank of half-buried toilet paper wads - Gross. Other than that I was glad to find FC, I'm a AZ native and had never been there before. I plan on going back, but during the week so as to [hopefully] avoid the crowds. I really want to explore the whole creek more! And I WILL be hauling out as much trash as I can carry, as long as it's not what you could consider a biohazard. Maybe if we all [at least try to] convince the visitors we see to do the same the place will begin to look better?