Powering the Phoenix Area?

[Jim]

Yes, the topic you've been itching for is finally here. Phoenix and Arizona love their electricity. Be it swamp cooler or AC, hydro and feel good solar and wind simply can't replace the other less eco-friendly sources we currently employ. Global warming may be the specter of fear which became a politically divisive tool to further inter-party divisions, but even in a would where carbon dioxide is a friendly as nitrogen gas, coal pollutes like an old guy comping on a Cuban Cigar (which is burning) in a fine restaurant. Where will the hippies and fossil fuel junkies take us?

See the photo that started it all!!
http://hikearizona.com/photo.php?ZIP=142330

[azbackpackr]

What I would like to experience is a straw bale house or other super-insulated house in the desert, in mid-summer. I wonder how much cooler they really are--can you get by without using a swamp cooler or AC in them? Just curious if anyone has spent any time in such a dwelling. There used to be a straw bale lady on one of the hiking forums. (I remember her well--she signed up for one of my hikes and didn't bother to show up or cancel...I never forget people who do that... )

[Jim]

Experience? Hmmm...

There is no reason to believe they would actually have a lower temperature in them unless they were dense enough to temper the diurnal temperature changes. Then they might be hotter at night but cooler in the day, as compared to a wood house. I think their principle advantage for people is the fast growing nature of hay to use for straw instead of wood, and the high level of insulation they have over a timber house. The R value of a bale of hay is much greater than a 2x4 wall. Once heated up, they shouldn't cool off real fast without AC.

[joebartels]

There used to be a straw bale lady on one of the hiking forums.

profile.php?u=33276

also, this guy used to live in one but not in the desert
profile.php?u=14

[azbackpackr]

She says her electric bill averages $40 per month year-round without solar panels. I think that her website has not been updated in years, though. http://www.houseofstraw.com/

Geez, that Montezumawell guy just up and disappeared off the forums one day, didn't he?

[Jeffshadows]

I think you need a better thermal mass, but friends who built a straw bale love it and say it stays very cool in the summer. I'd go for something like 24" adobe.

I hate empty talk, rhetoric, and hypocrisy. I'm running solar, recapture gray and rainwater, and drive a Prius 99.5% of the time when I don't actually need 4WD. Everyone else can do whatever he or she chooses, just don't pretend to be "Green" if you are not and we can be friends.

[cindyl]

Currently TEP (Tucson Electric Power) gets about 80 percent of its energy from its own coal burning plants. TEP does tout their renewable sources, too - but this energy does trade on the open market (the remaining 20 percent), and it is currently quite a bit more expensive to distribute this energy. Without a national Renewable Electricity Standard (RES), solar and wind installations just can't compete with the cheaper coal. According to the US Department of Energy, an RES would have an immediate effect of reducing fuel prices for all sectors, having minimal cost impact on power prices, and reducing carbon dioxide emissions.

As for the smaller (residential) market, I love my electricity and my A/C so... since I'm not going off the grid anytime soon... I would just love to have my power company get energy from cleaner sources.

[Jeffshadows]

You can run A/C on a solar power system, it's just a matter of system sizing and provisioning.

[joebartels]

I hate empty talk, rhetoric, and hypocrisy... just don't pretend to be "Green"

amen

[azbackpackr]

I never think about whether I am "green" or not. My income last year was $15,000. You think I give a d*mn about Priuses and solar panels? Get real. I ride a bike all the time because I like to and because it saves money on gas. Thinking in terms of whether I am "green" or not would just be silly and pretentious, I feel.

[Jeffshadows]

I never think about whether I am "green" or not. My income last year was $15,000. You think I give a d*mn about Priuses and solar panels? Get real. I ride a bike all the time because I like to and because it saves money on gas. Thinking in terms of whether I am "green" or not would just be silly and pretentious, I feel.

I'm going to have TVs, computers, and I need to get around in town. Telling people to live like it's 1905 is exactly why a lot of green-living initiatives have never taken off. Who needs to get real, now?

[cindyl]

I know there are many things that are quite possible to run off of solar - I recently read a really good book on the subject by Doug Fine, "Farewell, My Suburu," where he talks about the merits of going solar - and off the grid.

I never think about whether I am "green" or not. My income last year was $15,000. You think I give a d*mn about Priuses and solar panels? Get real. I ride a bike all the time because I like to and because it saves money on gas. Thinking in terms of whether I am "green" or not would just be silly and pretentious, I feel.

I believe that there are many dimensions of "sustainability." The environmental part is just one of those (human, social, and economic are the others). If you can't do the environmental part without maintaining economic capital, it makes a tough sell. Case in point: I have an aging water heater at my house that gurgles quite a bit with sediment. I've looked into a solar hot water heater, but at the rates that I'm paying now to heat my water via natural gas, it doesn't make economic sense to replace it until my water heater completely gives up. Another issue: Currently, those PVs (photovoltaic cells) and all their various parts are not manufactured anywhere close to Arizona - so what is the carbon footprint of solar power? We all make choices when it comes to sustainability. If I go bankrupt because I can't afford the solar system to run my AC, then it isn't really economically sustainable, is it? The incentives that are offered are great - there just needs to be more in order to make it affordable to the average Jane.

It's all a give and take - I do my part with my clean diesel Jetta that gets roughtly the same gas mileage as a Prius. I recycle. I call and write my congressmen and women and tell them about how I feel about these issues. I eat local foods (and drink local beers) whenever possible. I buy food in the bulk bins rather than having to throw away or recycle packaging.

But am I "Green"? Are you? I don't know. I think we can still be friends.

[Jeffshadows]

You hit a lot of important points. I made a lot of the decisions I did because I truly consider it my duty to impact the planet as little as I can and protect it for future generations. Some were against my own economic interest, but that's the price you pay to walk the talk.

I don't expect everyone to feel the same way but solar makes a lot of sense in a state with the average solar hours we have. Done correctly, it will result in TEP sending you a check every month, your property value going up appreciably, and you having a source of power in the event of a grid failure (Disaster, etc.) Even if you don't care about the planet, who can argue with that logic?!

[BobP]

Green is my favorite color....and thats about the only green I care about..oh and money

[azbackpackr]

I'm not telling people to live like 1905. I'm pointing out that for low income people, such talk about fancy cars and solar panels seems frivolous. Low income people were left out of cash for cars because we can't afford the payments (and a lot of our cars were too old to be on the list!) I drive a '78 Blazer, and burn wood in a fireplace all winter to keep warm because it is cheap. The Blazer is cheap too, despite the cost of gas: very low insurance, very low maintenance costs, very low tag fees.

Low income people are not interested in solar panels because one solar panel probably costs more than they make in a month.

And the fact of the matter is, that a very large number of people in the US are low income (and incidentally, more of them are white than any other race), and probably more than 50% of the world's population is poor as well. I am not going to tell you not to be green, as long as you don't tell me that I now have to worry about being green, in addition to everything else i have to worry about.

Being green is a luxury of the middle class. And isn't the whole notion of individual greenness largely a feel-good that does little to stop the problems, since it is industry and agriculture which create most of the smog, use most of the water, and cause the most other environmental problems?

Incidentally, I had a tougher time of it living in Tucson than I have had up here. It has been a lot easier and cheaper to live here, and easier to find a job, too. Here, I have a nice house with nice neighbors. There, I had a double-wide on a rented space in a high crime area which cost more per month in 1995 than my current monthly mortgage.

Anyway, I think the whole "I'm so green, are you green? I'm greener than you are" is a silly, pretentious, arrogant exercise in futility. I could care less about it.

[Jeffshadows]

Cindy, I'm not qualified to judge whether or not your footprint is lesser than my own. Nor would I dare. My comment about the Prius is an example of super-ultra low emission, not mileage. If a vehicle got 1MPG but released zero emissions, I'd buy it. I am, however, in a position to levy judgment against those other Prius owners who drive around with all of their bumper stickers and shove their Prius in everyone's face simply because it is a Prius. The same fools usually have chilled wine caves in their McMansions. Tisk-Tisk!!

[Jeffshadows]

Anyway, I think the whole "I'm so green, are you green? I'm greener than you are" is a silly, pretentious, arrogant exercise in futility. I could care less about it.

And I think it might just be the single most important contest a person could enter given the way the planet is going. If only we could start I "I have fewer kids than you" competition, as well...

[Jeffshadows]

I'm curious how people who think solar is a fruity fad feel about nuclear?

[big_load]

I'm curious how people who think solar is a fruity fad feel about nuclear?

I think a substantial increase in our use of nuclear power is inevitable, although I can't predict when. There will be more solar, too, but I think passive solar and solar heating will have more impact on a large scale than photovoltaic electrical generation. I hope we don't have to pave the whole desert with solar collectors or greatly increase our coal burning.

[Jeffshadows]

I'm curious how people who think solar is a fruity fad feel about nuclear?

I think a substantial increase in our use of nuclear power is inevitable, although I can't predict when. There will be more solar, too, but I think passive solar and solar heating will have more impact on a large scale than photovoltaic electrical generation. I hope we don't have to pave the whole desert with solar collectors or greatly increase our coal burning.

Agreed; I think nuclear might be the only way to make some of the next energy technologies actually viable (Hydrogen,) at least for the near-term...

Alright, I'll let someone else talk.