Powering the Phoenix Area?

[Jim]

Yes, the topic you've been itching for is finally here. Phoenix and Arizona love their electricity. Be it swamp cooler or AC, hydro and feel good solar and wind simply can't replace the other less eco-friendly sources we currently employ. Global warming may be the specter of fear which became a politically divisive tool to further inter-party divisions, but even in a would where carbon dioxide is a friendly as nitrogen gas, coal pollutes like an old guy comping on a Cuban Cigar (which is burning) in a fine restaurant. Where will the hippies and fossil fuel junkies take us?

See the photo that started it all!!
http://hikearizona.com/photo.php?ZIP=142330

[azbackpackr]

we could start "I have fewer kids than you" competition, as well...

We already tried that, in my generation. The best and the brightest in my generation had very few kids--a great many of them are childless. But you know as well as i do that you are NEVER going to get the people of a certain class to agree to having fewer kids. It will only be those with very high IQ's who are trying to save the world who will choose that option. You are a scientist, you know what the result will be.

I say, if your IQ is over 140, go ahead and have LOTS of kids!

[Jeffshadows]

we could start "I have fewer kids than you" competition, as well...

We already tried that, in my generation. The best and the brightest in my generation had very few kids--a great many of them are childless.

It's happening now, too. There are a few examples thereof present here on the site, in fact.

[big_load]

No kids here.

[SuperstitionGuy]

Available inexpensive energy has been one of the engines of prosperity for our country. Unfortunately we, the United States, have ignored nuclear to long and are now paying the price. Hydro, solar, wind, tidal and nuclear is what we should be relying upon and over time we should stop using dirty coal and even natural gas for electrical generation.

Starting in August I will be living within 80 miles of the worlds greatest nuclear accident, Chernobyl, Ukraine.

I will be there two years helping to start up a new Mormon Temple in the captial city of Keiv and I don't expect to come back glowing from radiation. Keiv was not down wind of the accident but the river and its watershed that flows through it was. Therefore we will be drinking only bottled water.

I plan on taking a tour of Chernobyl to see and hear about the accident and its effect upon that region and yes I will post some pictures of that visit.

[Jeffshadows]

I know you weren't intimating this, but it is worth noting that accidents like Chernobyl are virtually impossible with the newer breeds of reactor; regardless of what kind of muppets you have running the thing... ;)

[nonot]

What individuals do is not going to make that much difference compared to the masses. The billions of people on the earth are demanding energy. For now, the economic way is to burn coal in the power plants and oil in the cars. Talk of solar and wind and tidal is nice, but can't keep up with the demands. Nuclear has its drawbacks although it is arguably "cleaner" than fossil fuels, and is predicted to increase in use through the next 100 years unless something better comes along. However nuclear is political, thus a pain in the pumpkin, and expensive, so I doubt you'll see that much increase any time soon.

The world's true hope is to perfect fusion, but most are pessimistic that humanity is anywhere close to a breakthrough on that...anyone know a plasma physicist...the world needs more of those.

[soren2004]

Well i think the northern arizona people have it right. Phoenix is just too darn expensive! The pregnant women are going to miscarry and the old folks are going to kick the bucket because of the temperatures. And everyone else is going to be REAL cranky (not to mention smelly) if we get rid of the electrical use.

Rebuilding the entire city out of hay homes is not going to work because tearing down all of those homes will require either:
1) millions of hand tools
2) millions of barrells of oil for the machines

And then growing all of that hay and transporting it will be a huge environmental impact since it will require millions of tons of fertilizers and millions of barrells of oil to transport it here.

Building more power plants is simply out of the question. Coal is so dirt cheap (isnt it around $1 per ton?), but it is so dirty! Hydro power kills wild life and floods beautiful desert terrain. Nuclear power creates problems for our great-great-great (continue 20x times) grand children. Solar power creates toxic waste (the cells are made of purified silicon after all) and they take up HUGE amounts of space, so we end up killing off even more of our beautiful hard pan desert. Gas Turbines are also out of the question since they emit so much CO2.

So, the Northern Arizona people I have spoken to for years are absolutely correct; the Phoenix metro area is a cancer on this state! Phoenix (and Tucson) are far too expensive to live in. So the perfect energy solution is that the lower deserts simply must be abandoned! All of the homes, infrastructure, business, roadways, etc all must be left behind. We all must live more in tune with nature and phoenix (and the rest of the desert) does not support that, so it must go.

What do we do with the ~6 million people living here?
Well my friend suggested we all move up to Flagstaff where we can live in mud homes, just like the hohokam.

We can drink well water (dug by hand of course!). We will live off the land by growing crops for all 6 million of us. And the temperature is just right in the summer so we won't need air conditioning! Plus, since there will be so many of us all huddled together we won't need to burn any trees for heating in the winter or use natural gas, heating oil, or electricity. Think of the lack of environmental impact all 6 MILLION OF US would have!

Flagstaff, here we come!

(Ohh yeah, maybe we could spare 1-2 MILLION people for the rim country and the white mountains.)

[PaleoRob]

Before we build more nuclear power plants, we need to start reprocessing our spent fuel. 99% of the fissionable material in the rods is not expended during a fuel cycle - tossing that is like driving your truck a mile, dumping all the gas out, and then refueling it. Ridiculous. And the scale of nuclear is amazing too. Our dam up here produces 1,320 MW/hr when the lake is full and all eight generators are running (they mostly don't run all 8 at once). One generator at Palo Verde can produce 1,400 MW/hr, and it has 3 units. Nothing else, not even cheap coal, can compare in terms of scale.

[chumley]

I don't remember who mentioned "sustainability" earlier in this thread but I have a great story about it. (And subsequently the politics involved in powering Phoenix).

ASU in Tempe has the nation's first (and I believe only) degree program in "sustainability". In fact, there's a whole new college called the Global Institute of Sustainability. Here's the funny thing. When the school opened a year or two ago, they moved into a building on campus that was vacated when the School of Nursing moved to the downtown Phoenix campus.

They proceeded to gut the interior of the building, and re-do the whole thing with recycled carpet, environmentally friendly paints, and furniture made from "sustainable" materials. There's no telling how much more it cost to do it this way. But that's not the point.

The point is ... WHY did they have to do ANY of it? The building wasn't that old. It wasn't in disrepair. It didn't need all kinds of code upgrades, etc.

Wouldn't it be MORE SUSTAINABLE to CONTINUE TO USE THE SAME DAMN FURNITURE THAT ALREADY EXISTS in the building?

Don't get me started on how they then laid down about 5000 square feet of bermuda grass sod with a nice sprinkler system to keep it green.

At least the toilets are two-stage (up for #1, down for #2), and the lights are now on motion sensors. Most of these technologies are great, and should be required in all new construction IMO, but I think that if you're going to play "sustainability" then you should use what already exists until it doesn't work anymore. Ditto for your hybrid car. Drive your 75 Chevy forever (with a little TLC) and its better for the environment than buying a brand new hybrid car.

[joebartels]

Joe, we need the 2¢ emoticon. Cause that's what this is!

you got it!

and I brought back the real worthy
:worthy:

[azbackpackr]

Drive your 75 Chevy forever (with a little TLC) and its better for the environment than buying a brand new hybrid car.

Love mah ol' Chivy!

[montezumawell]

Nice topic here on HAZ. We learned our name came up in this thread with regard to our straw house up in the Verde Valley near Rimrock. Thanks for the heads up! We'd love to talk straw. As a result of learning that we'd been mentioned here we started a new blog last night specifically so interested people can read our opinions and comment if they wish. The blog is located at: http://ourstrawhouse.blogspot.com We specifically discuss aspect of cooling a straw house.

By the way, we didn't exactly disappear, we simply moved to Idaho. You can read about the "why" of that on the blog, too. And, yes, we're still hiking as much as possible.
HAZ is by far the best hiking website on Earth! And the HAZ Forum is totally awesome in every way. Happy Trails! Johnny Montezuma

[azbackpackr]

Nice topic here on HAZ. We learned our name came up in this thread with regard to our straw house up in the Verde Valley near Rimrock. Thanks for the heads up! We'd love to talk straw. As a result of learning that we'd been mentioned here we started a new blog last night specifically so interested people can read our opinions and comment if they wish. The blog is located at: http://ourstrawhouse.blogspot.com We specifically discuss aspect of cooling a straw house.

By the way, we didn't exactly disappear, we simply moved to Idaho. You can read about the "why" of that on the blog, too. And, yes, we're still hiking as much as possible.
HAZ is by far the best hiking website on Earth! And the HAZ Forum is totally awesome in every way. Happy Trails! Johnny Montezuma

Glad to hear you didn't fall off the face of the earth, just fell into Idaho. My brother and his wife live in Challis, but I have never been to visit them.

[Jeffshadows]

Rob and Chumley: I agree.

Rob: One of my hopes is that we see some of the former weapons-grade stockpile from both sides diverted into fuel use. There's an afwul lot of stuff that can be down-processed to produce literally tons of high-grade fuel!

[big_load]

By the way, we didn't exactly disappear, we simply moved to Idaho.

It's great to hear from you. Idaho is one of my favorite hiking destinations.

[chumley]

Joe, we need the 2¢ emoticon. Cause that's what this is!

you got it!

and I brought back the real worthy
:worthy:

Whoa! Is the Webmaster taking personal requests this morning? ... I'm also a big fan of :stirring the pot:

And from reading this forum, I'm not alone!

[Jeffshadows]

:guilty:

[Al_HikesAZ]

. . . Idaho is one of my favorite hiking destinations.

Hiking from New Jersey to Idaho - I'm in awe. :worthy: Now that is some thru hiking there.

[big_load]

Hiking from New Jersey to Idaho - I'm in awe.

Well, I prefer to start in Montana. NJ and PA are OK, but the hiking gets dull once you hit Ohio.

[Jim]

The energy crisis is real. It is worldwide. It is a clear and present danger to our Nation. These are facts and we simply must face them.

Then we got he 80s.