Blue Canyon

[ashokgrover]

hello I am new to this forum and want to know if anyone has explored blue canyon which is very near coal mine canyon. If anyone has done so , do we need special permit from Hopi nation and or guide to explore this area?. I am planning to visit coal mine canyon and blue canyon in third week of April and any suggestion in this area will be greatly appreciated. If any one of the members will be in this area then I will like to team up with him so we can explore and photograph this.

[joebartels]

I'd recommend you call 928-679-2303 and ask if they're even open. Last I heard you could only walk a portion of the rim.

[RedRoxx44]

Last I heard Coal Mine and Blue are not open to full exploration as this is an area ( at least Coal Mine) that is part of a new Navajo Hopi settlement ( in the courts) of this contested area. When I went to Coal Mine I spoke to a young Hopi man about hiking there. Now I understand under control of the Navajo; who are discussing including it in the Parks and Rec for the tribe. The guide I used for Canyon X in Page is in negotiation with the family and tribe to possibly guide Blue Canyon. He says it took years to get Canyon X approved.

[Sedona Red]

In response to RedRoxx44:

Just came back from CMC. Great views etc. etc. Wanted to go below the rim, but ran out of day. I'd be grateful if you would let
me know where the best place to descend is. A lat/lon and or Gps track would be superb!

Thanks in advance for your help.

Sedona Red

[JoelHazelton]

I've considered exploring the depths of Coalmine, Bat and Blue Canyons. The people to talk to are supposedly the Cameron Visitors Center; however, you will not get any decent info from them. I actually called a couple times and talked to a couple different people about this... I was wanting to backpack in and camp. They responded to any and all of my questions with ridiculous ambiguity.
i.e.

Me- "Am I allowed to backpack in and camp at the bottom of Bat/Blue/Coalmine Canyon?"
Them- "umm... Maybe. That might be okay."

Me- "Am I allowed to camp at the rim of the canyon, like, in the parking area?"
Them- "uhhh... umm... That should be fine. Yeah, that should be okay."

Finally, somebody told me that anything past the rim of Coalmine Canyon was actually Hopi land, or land they were disputing over, or something like that. So they really couldn't tell me one way or another. That doesn't necessarily explain the uncertainty about camping on the rim...

I more recently talked to a hiker who lives up in the area and actually works closely with the Navajo Nation. Here is a quote from him:

"Unfortunately, the bureaucracy of the tribe is horrendous...on par with 3rd World countries... [goes on to explain how he got bounced around trying to get a premit for a hike] ...This bureaucratic nightmare comes to a head when, if you do score a permit, the 'grazing site leaseholder' (no privately owned land on the Nation) can just tell you to leave if he chooses, permit or no!"

Apparently the best way to go for certain areas (although I can't suggest doing anything that may be illegal) is to forego the permit system, talk to the leaseholder for the land if you come across them during a hike (if you're nice enough they'll probably say yes), and stay hidden if you want to camp.

[PLC92084]

Once again... it's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission... A timeless truism! I'm probably going to put that on my grave...

[joebartels]

Once again... it's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission... A timeless truism! I'm probably going to put that on my grave...

Perhaps easier, not sure about better...

[JoelHazelton]

Once again... it's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission... A timeless truism! I'm probably going to put that on my grave...

Perhaps easier, not sure about better...

As far as better verse easier... From my understanding the only "good" or "better" thing to do is not go at all; otherwise, there's no telling what issues you may run into.

[base871]

We lost Little Colorado Gorge last year for the same reason. We got the permits, but the local hearders said "No way in hell". So now we cant cross their "land" to get to the trailhead. Sucks. That place was amazing!

[BobP]

In response to base871:
Was that the Salt Trail or another access point?

[base871]

Indian Maiden trail. We were going in at the Hellhole Bend area.

[VVebb]

We got the permits, but the local hearders said "No way in hell". So now we cant cross their "land" to get to the trailhead. Sucks. That place was amazing!

I'm a recent transplant to the Navajo Nation (Tuba City area), and have a little more information for people to consider. I'm a lawyer who lives/works on the rez, so that's the perspective from which I'll add my two cents:

I've been told that there are around a DOZEN different land statuses on the reservation. To name a few: Most of the land commonly known as "reservation" is land owned by the U.S. government, and held "in trust" for the benefit of the tribe. There are also farming allotments, which are also owned by the U.S. government, but are held "in trust" for the benefit of the "alottee," or recipient of the allotment. There is also "fee land" (that's an archaic use of the word "fee," not referring to anything monetary). An example of fee land is the Big Boquillas Ranch 80 miles west of Flagstaff, which was "regular" land (as you probably imagine it) that could have been purchased by you or me -- it just so happened that the Navajo Nation put up the cash and bought the land for itself. There are also "home site leases," "business site leases," and "grazing permits," which grant only a USE Right and not a possession/ownership right. Interestingly, however, many traditional Navajo families will refer to grazing land as "my family's land" -- perhaps due to confusion regarding the concept of use vs. possession, and perhaps because there is a fundamental (unwritten) Navajo law concept of "customary use," which can murkify things further (yes, I made up the word "murkify"). There are also lands that have been disputed between the Navajos and Hopis for decades, some of which have been recently settled.

I'm giving this information partly as a matter of practical assistance to the hikers here, and partly as a reminder of cultural sensitivity when using Indian land. In American culture, we like things to be clear. That's why we have lawyers -- to help disputes reach a point of finality. In a nearly 200-year-old U.S. Supreme Court decision called Johnson v. M'Intosh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_v._M%27Intosh), the U.S. Supreme Court decided that Indians didn't hold legal title to the land they occupied. This decision also helped create the "discovery doctrine," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_doctrine is basically regarded as the excuse that American courts made up for taking land away from the Native Americans. If you go to law school, you'll take a Real Property class in your first year, and this case will probably be the first case in your textbook, since it lays the foundation for all future U.S. land transactions.

To revisit the line I quoted above (from HAZ user base871), on one hand a sheepherder might ask you to leave his land even though he only has a right to use the land and therefore no right to exclude people from the land; that's the view under American law and culture. But on the other hand, Navajo fundamental/traditional law is very real in Navajo culture. (Only recently was Navajo fundamental law -- i.e. unwritten customs-- incorporated into the Navajo law/statute books.) The bottom line is that Indian land is "sovereign," allowing them to make their own laws, written or unwritten. The U.S.A. imposed a right to intervene many many years ago, but especially in recent decades, the U.S. government is giving the tribes more and more independence.

This might not actually answer the underlying question of whether, when, and where you can hike in Coalmine Canyon or elsewhere on the reservation, but if you're dedicated enough to really try to find the "right" way to hike here without cramping anybody's style, hopefully this at least gives you a little more perspective. I would actually love to hike Coalmine Canyon as well, and if I ever find the time, I'll probably try to do some investigating myself and let you all know what I find in terms of an arrangement that satisfies the local people and the tribal government. Just remember that if you try to fly under the radar and hike areas where you perhaps shouldn't be, that's going to make it harder for other folks to negotiate the privilege to go there with the blessing of the local people and governments. Whether it's hikers, hunters, auto mechanics, lawyers, or politicians, we all know that somebody who breaks the rules and gets busted is going to ruin the image of a lot of other people who try to do things the right way.

[Stepping down from soapbox.] I definitely don't want to sound fatherly or preachy, but I've learned a lot about Navajo culture even in my ~6 months living/working here, and wanted to share my insight for the benefit of other HAZ folks.

[azbackpackr]

A friend with a quite a bit of experience recently told me, if you are on the rez and encounter random people, never wave permit papers around or stop and look at maps, or appear like you don't know what you are doing. Act like you know exactly what you are doing and most of them will not approach to ask you what you are doing .

[paulhubbard]

I've added "murkify" to my everyday vocabulary! So many situations where it fits perfectly!

Good info VVweb, thanks. Whoever gave advice to you is probably correct, Liz. If you're unfortunate enough to ever hit one of their livestock, leave the scene if your able. That 30 year old "Ol' Besse" will turn out to be a prize winning example worth thousands, to which you'll be liable. This happened to a friend of mine (albeit years ago) and it took him a lot of grief to get out of it.

[PaleoRob]

I think that if you know the people that run that section of land, it tends to work best, permits or not. Navajo Nation says that Navajo Mountain is closed to non-Navajos. I've got plenty of Navajo friends that take people up there all the time. Its just a matter of technicality versus reality. Just be respectful and there are rarely any issues.

[Jim]

There are radio towers on Navajo Mt, how does the tribe keep non-Navajo Radio men from working on them?

[PaleoRob]

There are radio towers on Navajo Mt, how does the tribe keep non-Navajo Radio men from working on them?

But those are a special exception. :roll:
That has pretty much been my response to anyone who has talked about how I shouldn't take a trip up there. I want to enjoy the experience - I think that is a "correct" attitude. Yet people just making a buck are a-ok. No one has ever had much of a response there.

[azbackpackr]

Hey Rob did you catch my pm??

[joebartels]

If someone was walking through my backyard waving a Golden Eagle Pass, I'd probably kick 'em out too
If they gave me twenty bucks I'd probably hold the gate for 'em, smile and invite them back