Foot Ware in the Canyon

[KwaiChang]

I am going to do my virgin hike in the Grand Canyon - I already posted about my hike plans and I thank all of you who responded - this is an excellent forum for novice and pro alike.

My question is this - for a 6 day hike - Down SK, PR for 1 nite - up NK - stay there for 3 nites with a bunch of hikes down and back while there and then down NK and up BA - what kind of footware would you recommend? My hike is in Mid May and I want to get my shoes now and break those bad boys in. Right now I have regular ole hiking "sneaks" if you will. The brand doesn't come to me off the top of my head but they were pricey and dang nice when I hiked about in Sedona. Will they be enough or will I want to get something with more ankle support? My hiking partner wants to wear hiking sandals - THAT is outa the question for me.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

[PaleoRob]

While Rob swears by Chacos I tried the Z something version and would rather go barefoot on broken glass.

Well, I'll give you props for trying. The fit isn't for everyone, but I love the arch support. The first time I put them on, my feet hurt, but now it is like second nature. When I switch to my winter hiking boots (GorTex thinsulate Merrils), my feet ache again for a week and then they're fine.
Honestly, I prefer the sandals less than their other products - the flips and shoes. My shoes and flips have gotten more miles on them than my Z sandals. My flips alone have more miles on them, but I think part of my issues is that my sandals are A) slightly too large and B) have the toe ring, which I can't stand and didn't realize was on them when I purchased them.

[CannondaleKid]

I had worn Teva's w/o socks for six years before wearing socks with them.

The first time was at Aravaipa when I wore neoprene socks.

When searching for GPS Joe in the thick brush at Peeley I figured I should wear something with the Teva's mainly to keep every little scratch from becoming a cut. The first time searching it was dry so I went with thin biking socks, but the next time it was colder to so I went with a heavier cold weather hiking socks. Although it rained most of my search, my feet stayed reasonably warm. Still, I vowed next time if there was a chance it would rain, I'd use the neoprene socks. So when I did the trek with Liz out to Sheep Mountain, not knowing if it might rain, I went with the neoprene. But I had to take them off once we reached Sheep because there was enough sweat in them I had some sloshing in the toes. I went back to the heavier socks for the trip back, but it wasn't long before I felt I was sliding sideways too much and returned to bare feet. And the rest of the hike back I felt in better control again.

Then the search with Gabriele being colder with some ice I reverted back to socks. But in the end, I always feel much more comfort with bare feet in Teva's. So, rain or shine, as long as it is above freezing I'm back to sock-less.

As far as support when backpacking with a bigger load, with a 45 lb pack over two days at Aravaipa as well as another 21+ mile round trip hike to Peter's Mesa from 1st Water carrying 40+ lbs out and about 15 lbs on the return (due to leaving a cache), I felt great.
Weird but true, the last 3 miles back to first Water I was in such a groove I felt like I was walking on air and was wavering between 3 & 4 mph. Of course having dropped off 30 pounds from my pack made it feel like nothing.

[joebartels]

You can avoid the inner slosh by wearing wool socks inside the neoprene and exchange for a dry pair on your pack every couple hours. Works for me anyhow...

[CannondaleKid]

Yes, I'm sure that would work... only problem at the moment, I'd have to buy larger neoprene socks for that to work, mine fit pretty tight as is. If I start hiking in below freezing weather I just might invest in another pair, but how will I keep my nice deep Teva tan if I start wearing socks?

[azbackpackr]

Long live Tevas!

[Canyonram]

Based on your proposed route, you will need an all-weather backpacking boot capable of good ankle support since you will be carrying your winter gear and supplies with you cross-canyon. Forget the sandals, at least for the North Rim portion of your hike. Depending on how early in May you will be hiking, you may need crampons for portions of the upper SK as well as the NK and North Rim. May is a strange month at the Canyon---you can have winter weather near the North Rim with freezing temps and rain/snow//sleet and also experience the first '100 deg F' day in the Inner Canyon. Depending upon the depth of the winter snowpack on the North Rim, there can be snow still on the ground. Some of the best Canyon weather can occur on the North Rim during the day with high 60's F but then below freezing during the night. A 'Rim-to-Rim' hike is about 24 miles; you are planning a "A Rim-to-Rim-to-Rim' hike with side trips so you are well over 50+ miles facing winter conditions for several days. (An alternative is to do a 'Rim-to-Rim' by taking the Canyon Shuttle bus from the South Rim over to the North and then hiking down and up.)

The North Rim facilities usually open around mid-May due to snow cover and threat of winter weather. If you hike up to the North Rim and plan to spend a few days there be prepared for winter conditions. The campground store may not be open yet to the public so you will need to pack food, etc. Water may not be available in the campgrounds due to freezing weather (pipes will freeze) so be prepared to melt snow for your water.

Unless you have four-wheel drive, you will not be able to access any of the other trails that go down into the Canyon if the Rim is still snowed in---too far to walk to reach the trailhead. There are some Rim trails worth hiking but they may be snowed over. You can go down the remanent of the original Bright Angel on the North Rim---but not suggested in winter conditions since this trail is no longer maintained. This leaves you with a few days on the North Rim, quite possibly alone in the snow????

Others have mentioned the quest to find that perfect boot. There are plenty of websites that have "How to Select a Hiking Boot' procedures.
http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/article ... twear.html
http://www.hitthetrail.com/boots.php
http://www.slackpacker.com/hiking_boots.html
http://www.gorp.com/hiking-guide/travel ... 53362.html

Backpacker Magazine has boot reviews (though many read as if written by the individual company public relations department) that have been tested strictly in Grand Canyon by backcountry rangers, hikers, etc. All issues are available here:

http://books.google.com/books/serial/IS ... navlinks_s

Click on an issue of the magazine and in the 'Search' box type 'Grand Canyon boots' Click the box asking to search all issues. Instead of a particular brand, look for the qualities that made that boot earn a good rating. One of the more common problems showing up---even in boots with name recognition labels---is that the manufacture is outsourced and the quality is sometimes lacking. I had a pair of Vasque that lasted for a few dayhikes and break-in period with the entire sole stripping away. This boot used to be made to high standards in Italy but is now outsourced to China (not meant to be racist, etc---just telling in like it is). The method to adhere the Vibram sole is not yet worked out.

After you scan the reviews, decide on a few 'models' that fit your hiking needs. Call the local store to see if they carry that model---if you walk in blind, you stand to buy what the sliver-tongued saleperson offers up. Don't buy without putting the boot on in the store. Take your own socks that you will wear on the hike. If you need an orthotic insert, take that along as you size your boot. Forget the size number that you usually purchase and have your feet measured at the store using a Brannock Device. Each boot manufacture uses as different 'last' to build their boot--a size 11 for one manufacturer may not match the size 11 for another. Your feet change over time as you age----too many people remember their size from junior high and then buy that size forever! Try on both boots---one foot can be different that the other (a good friend has one foot a half-size larger than the other---he buys two separate pair of boots---some manufactures will sell a mixed-match pair). Accomodate any foot problems in your sizing: Bring your loaded backpack with you (some stores have a pack with weights for you to put on to check the comfort and fit underload). Find the incline board (good outfitters will have one in the boot-fitting area) and see how the boots respond under grade---for Grand Canyon, go for 15 degree+ on the slope---you don't want your foot slipping and sliding inside the boot since this friction + moisture is what causes blister formation. The incessant downslope to the River has ruined plenty of feet---it is not uncommon to see hikers suffering from full-sole blisters and blacktoenail---with the return hike still in front of them. Blister prevention and care will be a big consideration for you based on the length of your hike and the fact that you are in the 'experiemental' stage as to which boots will work best:
http://podiatryhotline.com/images/Prese ... 454785.pdf

At least 50 miles under load on the type of trail that you plan to hike for break-in. For better quality boots---the break-in is your feet to the boot and not to the boot to your feet. Avoid buying and then hiking in brand-new boots---they may feel great in the store but be a disaster on the trail. I used to hike along the railroad embankment to keep fit for Grand Canyon hiking---the steep rocky incline conditions matched the slope and instability of backcountry trails. Just watch out for speeding locomotives.
(Edit: When I first posted this suggestion, another forum member pointed out that walking the RR tracks is trespassing on RR property----this is true. The greater danger is that you may not hear/see that speeding locomotive---so, find a place with a steep slope and rocks/scree to walk.)

And, to answer your question, I wear Lowa Banff with Spenco backpacking inserts for Canyon hiking. They weigh a lot but, along with hiking poles, provide my old and abused feet and ankles with the necessary support and rigid sole to keep me functional. And yes, it is a great joy to find boots that are comfortable and protect your feet and keep you hiking. I used to hike the Canyon in tennis sneakers---but I also used to be 16. LOL.

[PaleoRob]

I used to hike along the railroad embankment to keep fit for Grand Canyon hiking---the steep rocky incline conditions matched the slope and instability of backcountry trails. Just watch out for speeding locomotives.

Just to insert a note here - railroad right of ways are technically private property. Railroads do have cops that can (and do) prosecute for trespassing on the ballast. Just ask any trainspotter.
Simply a word of caution.

[Canyonram]

Pagerob is correct regarding RR embankments as private property. Also, I apologize for offering up potentially dangerous place to hike---you may not see that speeding locomotive. That is a sure way to ruin a pair of new hiking boots. Find a place to hike that gives you a slope between 12-15% and has some rock debris---that is not on private property.

[autumnstars]

Another thought, especially if you don't live near a great outdoor store, is that Zappos sells many hiking boots. You can order several in different sizes and styles from them. As long as you don't wear them outdoors and get them all nasty, you can return as many as you want for a full refund. This is how I got my current boots - the ability to try several sizes really helped, since it was a brand no local place carries.

@PageRob: I must admit I love the arch support of Chacos. But I have very high arches, so it's certainly not for everyone.

[nonot]

Wow, I thought the concept of having big old hiking boots had gone the way of the dodo. Maybe if you run into snow and need to use crampons, but mid-may is pretty late to not expect too much deep stuff, I wouldn't think.

If you have good ankle strength, and are used to hiking, then your normal hiking shoes may be just fine. If you are planning on carrying everything but the kitchen sink and are not used to hiking on slopes, then maybe poles and ankle support would help.

Given you don't have much of any history on HAZ to review, it's tough to say. You are staying on the corridor trails, so I'd venture to say that anything you have on your feet that isn't new, or so old it is on the verge of falling apart, would be just fine. Are you even packing a tent or staying at provided facilities the whole time, packing light? With nothing much extra to lug around besides water a warm jacket, and some rain gear, stick to what you know...your typical hiking shoes.

[azbackpackr]

I don't get why there would be ANY heated discussion at all about footwear. If you're an experienced hiker, you know what works for you. Trying to tell someone else what to wear does not take into consideration that everyone is different. I have never found a pair of lowcut shoes that works for me, yet. Maybe someday I will. They do make boots that are not heavy, too.

[CannondaleKid]

I don't get why there would be ANY heated discussion at all about footwear.

:STP:
Who said anything was getting heated?

No really, I hear you. You are correct in that each and everyone can figure out for themselves what to wear after some hit and miss of experiences. Going up Siphon Draw then NE off-trail the rest of my day yesterday, wandering around some pretty steep terrain, I felt perfect in an old pair of Teva's, worn smooth enough so that actually stuck better on the smooth rock. I could walk with my feet at over a 45° angle across traverses with no trouble, or up and down the same terrain, something I could not do with anything more than low-cut hiking shoes.

It's kind of fun coming back on to the trail and people ask me you were hiking in SANDALS? And I just laugh, say why yes, what else would I wear? And if they are open to why I do, I'll clue them in. So far I've had at least a half dozen people go out and try Teva's... AND love them!


So maybe we should start a survey asking what our preference is in footwear for hiking, for example:
1. short, or easy terrain hikes
2. long hikes or tougher terrain
3. backpacking (25-30+ lb packs?)
4. cold weather use
What? Me post the survey?... Sorry not this morning, I'm about to head on on the trails now.

But if anyone does post a survey, please, for the sake of preventing nuclear war between HAZ members, don't allow responses explaining anything WHY, just the footgear they wear after each category. Once we've had 100+ responses we'll see what trend develops, and maybe then we can open it up to open warfare. :whistle:

No really, we all love each other too much on HAZ for that to happen, don't we??? :budrose:

Off to hit the trails... in my Teva's

[Canyonram]

Actually, backpackers are a pretty prickly bunch and not just because we picked up cactus spines hiking AZ. It is one reason so many of us are hiking solo---we can't get along with the rest of the damned human race. We don't get along well with others, run with scissors, and head to the outdoors to quell the combat. Get into a heated argument about boots??? Let's argue about bootlaces as well and the incorrect way you have 'em laced. And those socks----don't you know anything about footwear, sweaty feet, and blister prevention??? You still get blisters---you must not even know how to walk upright. And don't tilt that water bottle to the left when you drink, you'll dribble off your chin----why don't you get a hydration bag like this one?

Another dimension to the disagreement is the generation gap. Old Baby Boomers still mimic Colin Fletcher and his gear advice---I still use my old Kelty EXTERNAL frame pack as my primary pack. You'll be hard pressed to even find an external frame on display in most of the outdoor stores. Ditto the footwear----my ruined feet need the support, stiff sole, and upper ankle support to keep my mangled feet protected and functional---so I'm in my Lowa Banff's. I'm way overboard with the weight I lift with each step I take---but the lighter weight boots no longer apply to keep me functional. Wait 'til you get old, ya bastids. I talked with a salesperson at REI and he told me customers fall into one of two categories: Granolaheads (the old school hikers with the external packs, Sterno stoves, canteens, iodine tablets, etc) and the GearGeeks (those who purchase every new gadget and gizmo and ultralight innovation---they're the ones with the $500 GPS and the laser-beam microblaster to disinfect their drinking water). I guess we can also start dividing up into factions as to which end of the egg to crack open---the large end or the tappered end.

To answer the poll question and the results that we will never learn about because Cannondalekid isn't going to bother tallying the results anyway---I have some mid-weight hightop Vasque for dayhikes, and Lowa Banffs for everything else.

And I have no doubt that someone on the forum is going to post a disagreement on my observations---probably something to the effect that they hike in a group and everybody gets along just fine. It's probably because you're all too dumb to realize you should be arguing with one another. Just look at the way those morons all have their bootlaces tied!!!!

[azbackpackr]

I agree that all kinds of footwear can be used. What I take issue with is that over the past 10 years, several companies, including Vasque, who used to regularly manufactur shoes and boots in my odd narrow size NO LONGER MAKE SHOES IN MY SIZE. That is my only real problem. If money were no object and I could find hiking shoes in my size, I would likely have a closet full of all kinds. However, as it is, I am very grateful that Lowa still does make a few models that fit me. I just hiked BA-tonto-SK in them today, in snow, mud, and ice, and boy are they comfy.

[CannondaleKid]

Wait 'til you get old, ya bastids.

I AM old as in the same age as you, 'cept I no longer consider 60 old, more like 80+. But no matter my age, my arthritic ankles, knees, fingers and neck, (yep, a true pain-in-the-neck!) I'm not giving in because someone thinks I should. My dad stopped nightly walks when my stepmom didn't think it was safe and within 3 years he walked like Frankenstein, unable to bend his ankles.
Well over a dozen years ago I started in with the joint pain and tightness, especially in the cold, damp times of MN weather and was prescribed various medications, none which helped. So I stopped the meds cold and started inline skating and mountain biking and have never looked back (adding hiking after moving here, where there are no paved trails in the desert for skating).
Pain is a state of mind that I no longer kowtow to... only when I have a very specific pain that is over and above my normal zoned out level do I resort to pain relievers. I find it hard to believe how many folks here seem to pop Vitamin I like jelly beans... of course we have our own old injuries, aches and pains, I just tend to lose just enough of my memory as to forget about that stuff.... if it's in the past, it's done and gone!

As far as this spirited discussion of hard-headed, can't teach old dogs new tricks, I may be old and set in my ways, but I'm not so obtuse (re: Shawshank Redemption) that I'm not open to possibly a better way. How else would I have started using Teva's as my #1 foot gear for hiking at 54 years young? But I'm sure glad I did!

results that we will never learn about because Cannondalekid isn't going to bother tallying the results anyway---I have some mid-weight hightop Vasque for dayhikes, and Lowa Banffs for everything else.

You've thrown down the gauntlet now...
You'll get your survey... be patient for a few more hours... surely we're old enuf to have some patience??
First I need to post my triplog, GPS track and photos of yesterday's hike... another off-trail, slick-rock, scree-sliding, bush-whacking, MARVELOUS VIEWS, slog in Teva's, (9 mi/4k AEG the last two days) and the footsies are feelin' great, thank you!

It's probably because you're all too dumb to realize you should be arguing with one another.

Who's arguing... it's just that spirited discussion thing

Just look at the way those morons all have their bootlaces tied!!!!

Yep, every less-experienced novice hiker I encounter I think the same thing about something they are doing wrong, which just means not the way I'd do it. Isn't it nice to have so many morons in the world? If it weren't for them how would us old farts raise ourselves so far up on a pedestal? :worthy:

Stay tuned for the survey... but wait, if we are to cover all the bases (starting another spirited discussion), is everyone ok with the 4 options I set out for the type of hike/backpack. Chip in a few of your thoughts and maybe I'll use them to get this survey going by this evening... I know, some of you have real jobs and it's a work day.
:thanx:

[KwaiChang]

C-Kid - what happened to the SURVEY???????

[CannondaleKid]

Ok, ok.... :sorrry:
Dang, that's what happens when you get old... like when I look all around the house for my sandals in the moments before going to meet someone for a hike... only to find they're already on my feet! :whistle:

Now... I'll have to remember how to post a survey again...
Let's see... I think I've done it once before but my mind fails me... as usual.

[CannondaleKid]

Now that I refreshed my memory (ok, so I read the FAQ's) and know how to post a poll again I realize that won't work very well as a survey so I'll just start another thread in the Gear section solely for a foot gear survey.

DONE! The survey is 'live'
http://www.hikearizona.com/dex2/viewtop ... f=3&t=5874

[KwaiChang]

OK - I know most people don't really care but I FINALLY got around to posting about my May adventures below the rim - South Kiabab, River Walk, Waldron and North Kiabab are the hikes below the rim.......what a GREAT time!!!

[azbackpackr]

Well, you pulled up the GC footwear page. So, I am going on a river trip a couple weeks from now, and I am not taking any shoes, just Tevas and flips, and a pair of neoprene booties for rigging rafts in the very cold water. (I may relent and add a pair of tennies, but probably not.) I will bring socks also.