Snowbowl Snowmaking

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chumley
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Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by chumley »

Dare I start a HAZ thread on this topic?

As some of you may have noticed, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals today overturned their previous decision, which now paves the way for the upgrading of some facilities at the Arizona Snowbowl, as well as the installation of snowmaking equipment using A+ relcaimed wastewater from Flagstaff.

Originally, three judges from the same court ruled that the plan would infringe on the religious freedoms of several Native American tribes in northern Arizona who view the mountain as a sacred religious site.

In today's ruling, the full court of 12 judges ruled 9-3 in favor of the US Forest Service and Arizona Snowbowl:
Friday's ruling sympathizes with the tribes' religious beliefs but points out that there is no likelihood of ecological damage from use of the reclaimed water, nor would any tribal members be denied access to worship. The spiritual effect, it opines, is not substantially harmed to prohibit the resort's plans.

“Were it otherwise,” it reads, “any action the federal government were to take, including action on its own land, would be subject to the personalized oversight of millions of citizens. Each citizen would hold an individual veto to prohibit the government action solely because it offends his religious beliefs, sensibilities or tastes, or fails to satisfy his religious desires. Further, giving one religious sect a veto over the use of public park land would deprive others of the right to use what is, by definition, land that belongs to everyone.”
As an avid skier, I'm personally pleased with the decision for my own selfish reasons. I'd like to think that those selfish reasons don't sway my objectivity in the argument either, which also agrees with the decision.

After years of proposals, studies, public input, and meetings with concerned parties following the normal procedures required by the Forest Service, and after the EPA and ADEQ cleared the use of the reclaimed water, the Forest Service approved the plan set forth by the lessee of that land (Snowbowl). Since they apparently did everything they were supposed to do, and got all the approvals required of them according to the book, and the plan was approved, my opinion is that the people who didn't want to see it happen (and subsequently the courts) should accept the decision and stay out of it.

Of course, I post this here because we all like the outdoors and have different views on issues of preservation and access so I'm curious what others think about this story.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by paulhubbard »

I don't get why they want to develop the south facing area on Humphrey, the snow is rarely nice enough to [enjoyably] ski there.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by Jim »

paulhubbard wrote:I don't get why they want to develop the south facing area on Humphrey, the snow is rarely nice enough to [enjoyably] ski there.
My guess is they plan to make piss snow there at night and ski it as it melts on the normally warm sunny days. This takes the water quality issue to new heights, so to speak. I am well aware of the benefits that I have enjoyed due to access to the Peaks in winter and summer from Snowbowl Rd, but when I this kind of plan, I wish they would close up shop and go out of business. Why didn't the tribes do the smart thing and buy the resort? All the lawyers and lawsuits, and to think that they could have bought the place and run it into the ground, or as it was. You're telling me that all the different tribes couldn't have gotten together and done that?
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chumley
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by chumley »

PageRob wrote:
Jim_H wrote:Where's ELF when you need them?
If you want something done right, do it yourself.
There are ways of having your voice heard, and terrorism isn't one of them. Ever.

While I think (hope?) your comment wasn't serious, I find it to be irresponsible. You may disagree with the outcome, but this issue has been debated and studied through an established process over several years. The decisions have been challenged through an established legal process. It continues to be challenged legally. Any other means of disagreement has no place in a free society.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by paulhubbard »

First off you have the ongoing feuds between the Navajos and Hopis, and I doubt they would collaborate to purchase the resort.
Second, if the land is not for sale, it's difficult to buy it. Does the Snowbowl reside on Nat Forest land, or is it held privately, or a combination of both?
Lastly, if the tribe(s) did buy it, they would probably exploit it, just like the White Mnt tribes have done. You want casinos to go along with the ski area?
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by hippiepunkpirate »

paulhubbard wrote:Does the Snowbowl reside on Nat Forest land
The land is under lease from the National Forest
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by nonot »

chumley wrote:
PageRob wrote:
Jim_H wrote:Where's ELF when you need them?
If you want something done right, do it yourself.
There are ways of having your voice heard, and terrorism isn't one of them. Ever.

While I think (hope?) your comment wasn't serious, I find it to be irresponsible. You may disagree with the outcome, but this issue has been debated and studied through an established process over several years. The decisions have been challenged through an established legal process. It continues to be challenged legally. Any other means of disagreement has no place in a free society.
Interesting that you think we have a free society?
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by PaleoRob »

chumley wrote:
PageRob wrote:
Jim_H wrote:Where's ELF when you need them?
If you want something done right, do it yourself.
There are ways of having your voice heard, and terrorism isn't one of them. Ever.
I think there is a debate to be had over whether sabotaging equipment is terrorism. It is certainly a debate that is ongoing in other circles.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by joebartels »

Debate it all you want, sabotage is sabotage. Even the Beastie Boys admit they were a little out of line in the past :D

BTW... I think this thread should be in Political unless one of the members here owns Snowbowl :M2C:
I think this thread predated that categories existence
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by Jim »

"Terrorism" and a "terrorist" are what ever the "authority" says they are. Expressing a view is not the same as acting on something. I think it started well before we had the Political forum.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by JimmyLyding »

paulhubbard wrote:I don't get why they want to develop the south facing area on Humphrey, the snow is rarely nice enough to [enjoyably] ski there.
The only way they can make skiing work on the south slope is with snow making. I'm sure the Flag Chamber of Commerce is all over it.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by joebartels »

Jim_H wrote:I think it started well before we had the Political forum.
yep I just realized that and moving it now
Jim_H wrote:Expressing a view is not the same as acting on something.
amen
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by Jim »

What is most irritating, is this is an expansion with increased capacity, both in terms of skiing terrain and lifts, sledding area, and parking, which means the total number of visitors will increase on a good snow weekend. However, no attempt is being made by the city, county, state, or Snowbowl to do anything about traffic from Snowbowl to I-17. Traffic is already horrendous on weekends and during periods like the week between Christmas and New Years when people have off and go to Snowbowl in droves. I feel bad for people who live on the US 180 corridor. The worst I have ever seen it was last month when traffic was backed up to beyond the Peak View pull off. It took 45 minutes to get to the hospital area from there, and this was at 6:30 at night. I can only imaging how bad it will be next winter if we have a good snow pack by late December and capacity for hundreds or thousands more people and cars. It would be nice if the city taxed Snowbowl and ran a weekend bus service from one of our abandoned shopping areas and parking lots to cut down on traffic. That would also enable the 22 year old drunks to safely get to down without fear of going into the ditch on Snowbowl Road. I saw that, too.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by azbackpackr »

Jim, you should hit the town council meetings and do some letter writing as well. I really think this is something Flag could embrace. (Maybe not the Phoenicians but oh well. They can go to Sunrise instead!)

They could have the bus be very cheap and the parking up on the hill be very expensive.

Not sure how the bus would deal with all the equipment???
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by chumley »

azbackpackr wrote:Not sure how the bus would deal with all the equipment???
Busses are very common in western mountain resort towns. There's all kinds of solutions for carrying the equipment.

Way back in the day, Snowbowl used to run a bus from the parking lot (eh, dirt field) at the 180/Snowbowl Road junction. There wasn't a lot of parking at the ski area, and not everybody and their brother had a SUV or 4wd. Everybody in their Accords and Corollas parked at the bottom and took the bus up. Don't know why they stopped that service. But I'm pretty sure that was a Snowbowl initiative. Continuing the service into town would require town/county/state approval (and likely funding). I think it would definitely be worth studying options.

As for the expansion creating traffic, I'm not sure if this is a chicken-egg argument. The people are coming up looking for snow anyway. Look at how ridiculous Wing Mtn. has gotten in the last few years. It's much safer to have designated destinations for snowplay than to have people randomly parking along the side of the highway. Snowbowl's snowplay expansion may actually help reduce the safety issues caused along 180, and Wing Mtn.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by fotogirl53 »

It will be interesting to see how this plays out--both with the cost of the snowmaking and the quality of the snow. How much will Snowbowl raise its ticket prices? It will also be interesting to see how the flora changes (info earlier from Jim_H). About the Navajo objections: this mountain is "sacred" in the religion and as the site of burials. The burial practices of the Navajo are much different than other cultures.
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