How do meadows form?

[joebartels]

Surely others have pondered what makes a meadow. The sharp tree lines on the Kaibab plateau along HWY 67 keep me wondering.

How Meadows Develop
Until recently, typical academic theory taught botanists that meadow development resulted from succession—a glacial terrain that evolves into a lake, a meadow and then a forest. We know now that not all meadows are part of this successional path: not all will change at some future point into a forest. Meadow location, rather, is determined by topography. On the western slope of the Sierra Nevada, for instance, meadows occur in situations where a relatively flat landform is surrounded by steep terrain with a large watershed that offers a shallow water table and fine textured soils.

source
http://www.nps.gov/yose/naturescience/meadows.htm

Not sure if that cures my curiosity. So why don't the trees grow in the meadow? Does the soil change? Are the Kaibab meadows manicured?

[outdoor_lover]

I know that up on the Rim, they do cut trees down that are encroaching on the Meadows.....

[nonot]

Some meadows get too wet - any trees roots rot due to time the meadow is flooded.

The meadows on the Mogollon rim...

[joebartels]

@Outdoor Lover
which rim?

[outdoor_lover]

@joe bartels
Sorry, I'm not used to there being more than one Rim. Mogollon Rim....

[imike]

Hiked last month with a biologist who works with the Conservancy... up in the high meadows here in the Sacramento mountains. I commented that the clear cutting back 100-60 years ago probably opened up the meadow areas, assuming they used to be more confined... she commented that more likely the opposite would be true: the meadows were probably wider before the trees were cut out...? More to do with the soil and water runoff?

[Sredfield]

TNC and the FS are planning a meadow restoration project at Hart Prairie this fall. The trees encroaching on the Prairie are only 60-80 years old, as evidenced by photos and tree ring analysis. They are so big because they have little competition, some of the tree rings are over 1/4 inch wide. The FS will cut 70-80 acres this fall. TNC has been cutting one small plot in the NE corner of the preserve on its own. They have ~10 years of ground water data across the meadow. The real proof of the effectiveness will be if the water levels rise after the trees are cut. A creek used to flow through the willow trees and across the meadow but it is now a dry channel. In a book by his wife Stella, Mack Hughes, a cowboy for the Hash Knife and later CO-Bar ranch, recalls spending time by a running stream at Hart Prairie in the 1920's. The CO Bar used to be headquartered there on Hart Prairie, immediately south of the preserve.

[tibber]

TNC and the FS are planning a meadow restoration project at Hart Prairie this fall. The trees encroaching on the Prairie are only 60-80 years old, as evidenced by photos and tree ring analysis. They are so big because they have little competition, some of the tree rings are over 1/4 inch wide. The FS will cut 70-80 acres this fall. TNC has been cutting one small plot in the NE corner of the preserve on its own. They have ~10 years of ground water data across the meadow. The real proof of the effectiveness will be if the water levels rise after the trees are cut. A creek used to flow through the willow trees and across the meadow but it is now a dry channel. In a book by his wife Stella, Mack Hughes, a cowboy for the Hash Knife and later CO-Bar ranch, recalls spending time by a running stream at Hart Prairie in the 1920's. The CO Bar used to be headquartered there on Hart Prairie, immediately south of the preserve.

TNC has been cutting one small plot in the NE corner of the preserve on its own.

Yep, and that's what we worked on this weekend. We got a lot of the brush and rounds cleared in that area. It's lookin' good but there is still quite a bit more to go. It was a little tricky working on that Sat AM with the snow on the ground. Anyway, Neal told us there was much more of a meadow and water to support the potato farming back in the day as well.

What I also found interesting is that they are going to try and clear some of the conifers from the aspen circle toward the bottom of the meadow. I think he said there were only supposed to be 100 conifers and there was almost 1000 in there.

I hope we get to see what the total restored meadow at Hart Prairie looks like in our lifetime. Another example of an encroaching treeline is at the back of Hidden Lake in Glacier Park though there is nothing being done about it... then of course, water is not an issue: http://hikearizona.com/photo.php?ZIP=285704

[chumley]

I'm confused. Are we messing with a natural process? Just because it used to be another way, doesn't mean we are supposed to keep it that way. Things change. Now if there was a man-caused disruption such as cattle grazing that has now stopped, perhaps that is a valid reason for trying to get it back to the way it was. Even that is disputable because there are so many things affected by that, and we are now only correcting one of them, probably resulting in countless other unanticipated changes?

I sort of think that if momma earf wanted there to be a meadow somewhere, there would be a meadow there. And if not, there won't be.

[outdoor_lover]

@chumley
This could end up being a much deeper subject than initiated. After all, we mess with Mother Nature all of the time, via Prescribed Burns and Fire Suppression....There are a million areas in which we are messing with a natural process. If indeed eventually Meadows turn into Forests, then Mother Nature's Cycle probably would reverse that process with another Ice Age and Glacier build up. But is another Ice Age even possible, given our apparent ability to "warm" up the atmosphere and the impact that we have already had on the Environment? Just pondering, I don't have any answers..... ;)

[Sredfield]

the Hart Prairie effort is believed to be caused by fire suppression, if the meadow doesn't burn every few years, the pine seedlings get established.

[hippiepunkpirate]

TNC and the FS are planning a meadow restoration project at Hart Prairie this fall. The trees encroaching on the Prairie are only 60-80 years old, as evidenced by photos and tree ring analysis. They are so big because they have little competition, some of the tree rings are over 1/4 inch wide. The FS will cut 70-80 acres this fall. TNC has been cutting one small plot in the NE corner of the preserve on its own. They have ~10 years of ground water data across the meadow. The real proof of the effectiveness will be if the water levels rise after the trees are cut. A creek used to flow through the willow trees and across the meadow but it is now a dry channel. In a book by his wife Stella, Mack Hughes, a cowboy for the Hash Knife and later CO-Bar ranch, recalls spending time by a running stream at Hart Prairie in the 1920's. The CO Bar used to be headquartered there on Hart Prairie, immediately south of the preserve.

Thanks for this info, Shawn. I forwarded to my Dad via e-mail. Almost every time we hike together, we complain of the trees encroaching in meadows in multiple locations in the Coconino NF around Flagstaff. Beside Hart Prairie, there are similar problems in Lockett Meadow and the meadows inside the Dry Lake Hills.

I'm confused. Are we messing with a natural process? Just because it used to be another way, doesn't mean we are supposed to keep it that way. Things change. Now if there was a man-caused disruption such as cattle grazing that has now stopped, perhaps that is a valid reason for trying to get it back to the way it was. Even that is disputable because there are so many things affected by that, and we are now only correcting one of them, probably resulting in countless other unanticipated changes?

I sort of think that if momma earf wanted there to be a meadow somewhere, there would be a meadow there. And if not, there won't be.

As Shawn alluded to briefly in his comment previous to mine, meadows in Arizona high country are very much maintained by low-intensity fires, that under the natural fire regime would come through very frequently ( <10 years). Obviously fire suppression no longer allows that to happen. So in essence, but cutting young trees encroaching on meadows, we are acting in place of the wildfire to keep to the meadows open. Mother earth does want those meadows there, but Smokey the Bear would prefer to unnaturally take away the mechanism that allows the meadows to be maintained. Same deal as we debate extensively every summer wildfire season about how the forests are overgrown due to lack of the fire regime.

[Jim]

Anyone know if the Forest Service cut those areas around Hart Prairie as expected? Perhaps there are pictures of this, or there is a recent photo set of some of the work?

[Sredfield]

Word is that the contract has been let and should start "any time now."

[Jim]

Well, that is good news. Maybe this summer, hopefully before the rains comes, the harvest will begin.