Piestewa Peak
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montezumawellGuides: 6 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 7,478 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
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Piestewa Peak
The April 8 Arizona Republic contained an editorial urging the renaming of Phoenix's Squaw Peak to Piestewa Peak in honor of Tuba City Heroine Lori Piestwea, killed early in the Iraq War.
The Peak was renamed 4/17. Congratulations.
J&S
PS--Of those 31 HAZ members who dared to reply to the poll, the vote was 24 "NO" and 7 "YES."
The Peak was renamed 4/17. Congratulations.
J&S
PS--Of those 31 HAZ members who dared to reply to the poll, the vote was 24 "NO" and 7 "YES."
Last edited by montezumawell on Apr 18 2003 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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youngboyGuides: 0 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 8,212 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
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mttgilbertGuides: 5 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 5,992 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: 6,187 d
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It will always be Squaw Peak to me too.but it's still squaw peak to me
I don't understand how they got arounde the five year waiting period before re-naming the peak. And I understood that the name change is only statwide so far. What about the federal maps? If anyone understands these issues please enlighten me, the News give so little information.
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DarylGuides: 0 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 7,980 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
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9 times out of 10 when they want to rename something because it offends people I will say it is political correctness running wild and think it's a waste of time. This is that 1 in 10 for me.
If it was nigge... peak, nazi peak, insert racial slang here peak, or even saddam international airport, no one would argue the name change. Just because the indians don't have a large media voice, it is too easy to say "who cares" about them.
(warning, this next sentence is not how I feel, it is sarcasm) They are just a bunch of uneducated drunks that live off our taxes and own land that we want to use. Who cares if we offend them. Right?
Squaw is not, and never will be, a good thing to call a female indian. It began, became and was ment to be a derogatory and degrading comment, just like the "N" word (which simply means black in spanish). Would you tell your kids it's okay to use the "N" word? Would you be against renaming nigge... peak? Would you call your daughter a squaw? Squaw is the same thing as the "N" word without the support.
I don't care what they call the mountain or how they changed the name. I'm just glad they finally did.
If it was nigge... peak, nazi peak, insert racial slang here peak, or even saddam international airport, no one would argue the name change. Just because the indians don't have a large media voice, it is too easy to say "who cares" about them.
(warning, this next sentence is not how I feel, it is sarcasm) They are just a bunch of uneducated drunks that live off our taxes and own land that we want to use. Who cares if we offend them. Right?
Squaw is not, and never will be, a good thing to call a female indian. It began, became and was ment to be a derogatory and degrading comment, just like the "N" word (which simply means black in spanish). Would you tell your kids it's okay to use the "N" word? Would you be against renaming nigge... peak? Would you call your daughter a squaw? Squaw is the same thing as the "N" word without the support.
I don't care what they call the mountain or how they changed the name. I'm just glad they finally did.
“Life is tough, but it’s tougher if you’re stupid”
John Wayne as Sergeant John M. Stryker, USMC in “The Sands of Iwo Jima”
John Wayne as Sergeant John M. Stryker, USMC in “The Sands of Iwo Jima”
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MaryPhylGuides: 0 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 9,112 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
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montezumawellGuides: 6 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 7,478 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
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Done deal
Congratulations!
J&S
J&S
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TrailheadGuides: 0 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 8,230 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
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It kills me when people talk out of their orifice stating that the word Squaw is a derogatory term, maybe for some but surely not for all. Check out Webster's meaning," A North American Indian Woman", that's it. How about the meaning and history right from the horses mouth
I think the word got it's bad reputation from the Hollywood movies of the 50s, 60s, and 70s. PC, PC, PC.Kwai kwai. Greetings. I write to you as an alnobaskwa, an Abenaki woman, questioning the motion to gut our original language in the name of political correctness. Over the past few decades, in my travels as a traditional storyteller and historical consultant, I have met many indigenous speakers and elders who are concerned at the efforts of otherwise well-meaning people to remove the word "squaw" from the English language.
Squaw means the totality of being female
Squaw is NOT an English word. It IS a phoenetic rendering of an Algonkian word that does NOT translate to "a woman's private parts." The word "squaw" - as "esqua," "squa," "skwa," "skwe" and other variants - traditionally means the totality of being female, not just the female anatomy. The word has been interpreted by modern activists as a slanderous assault against Native American women. But traditional Algonkian speakers, in both Indian and English, still say words like "nidobaskwa" = a female friend, "manigebeskwa" = woman of the woods, or "Squaw Sachem" = female chief. When Abenaki people sing the Birth Song, they address "nuncksquassis" = "little woman baby."
During the contact period, northeastern American Indian people taught the colonists the word "squaw," and whites incorporated it into their speech. English observers described women's medicinal plants such as "squaw vine" and "squaw root," among many others. There are rumors about the word's usage as an insult by French fur traders among western tribes who were not Algonkian speakers. But the insult was in the usage, not in the original word.
Any word can hurt when used as a weapon. Banning the word will not erase the past, and will only give the oppressors power to define our language. What words will be next? Pappoose? Sachem? Pow Wow? If we accept the slander, and internalize the insult, we discredit our female ancestors who felt no shame at hearing the word spoken. To ban indigenous words discriminates against Native people and their languages. Are we to be condemned to speaking only the "King's English?" What about all the words from other Native American languages?
Let me tell you a story. A good friend, a revered New England Algonkian elder, gave her granddaughter a traditional name that ended in "-skwa" meaning "powerful little woman." That poor girl came home from school in tears one day, asking, "Why did you name me such a horrible name? All my teachers told me it's a dirty word." When our languages are perceived as dirty words, we and our grandchildren are in grave danger of losing our self-respect. That school is now being taught that squaw is NOT a dirty word, but an indigenous term that has been misused and misunderstood, and that it is an appropriate, traditional, and honorable part of this girl's name.
Some American Indian activists have written to me saying, "well, YOU can use the word if you want, but WE consider it obscene." This labeling of my indigenous language as obscene is a racist statement. It makes no sense for Native people to cling to and accept a wrong translation. We must stop now and educate, rather than tolerate the loss of our language due to ignorance.
Historical Background
Before the arrival of the colonists, the word "squaw" was not an insult. When Roger Williams spoke with the Narragansett people in 1643, he was informed that "squaw" meant "woman" - "squawsuck" = "women," "squashim" = "a female animal," "keegsquaw" = "a young virgin or maid" and "segousquaw" = "a widow," among many other examples. Williams, as a white man, was not taught the specific words that describe female parts. Out of delicacy I will not print them here.
Even Indian people speaking English chose to say "squaw" rather than "woman." Susanna Johnson, an English captive in 1754, wrote: ". . . my new sisters and brothers treated me with the same attention they did their natural kindred," giving her a horse, "for squaw to ride," and teaching her "the occupation of the squaws." But when she got lazy, her new family "showed no other resentment than calling me 'no good squaw,' which was the only reproach my sister ever gave me when I displeased her." (Note that the emphasis is on "no good," not on "squaw.")
I understand the concern of Indian women who feel insulted by this word, but I respectfully suggest that we reclaim our language rather than let it be taken over. To borrow an old proverb, "let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater." If the "water" - the meaning of the word in some minds - is dirty, let us work together to make it clean again, instead of throwing out the word. There are times and places where it is necessary to distinguish a woman from a man, and English is problematic as well, since "man" is the root form and "woman" a modifier. But I identify myself as a "woman" despite the fact that even that word has been slanderously used by those who think that women are less intelligent, strong, or capable than men.
We can do what the "Institute for the Advancement of Aboriginal Women" (IAAW )in Edmonton, Alberta, has done with the term "esquao," the northern linguistic equivalent of "squaw" - they have declared that it will no longer be tolerated as an insult, but will instead be recognized as a term of honor and respect. Their manifesto states in part: "From the colonists inability to pronounce the word Esquao, the word 'squaw' came to be a derogatory term. IAAW is claiming back the term for all Aboriginal Women to stand proud when we hear Esquao applied to us."
It is my firm belief that the only way to stop people from continuing to use this word as an insult, is to educate them regarding its actual meaning and context, and whenever it is used inappropriately, to take that as yet another opportunity to educate. No, I don't think people should indiscriminately call women "squaw," but attacking the word only replaces insult with ignorance. We are smarter than that, and if more people still spoke indigenous languages, there would be greater understanding of indigenous words. No matter how the word is spelled, it sounds essentially the same - the spelling variances came from outsiders transcribing an oral tradition into a written language. If the word ending "-skwa" caused no shame to our female ancestors who spoke the language before contact, are we smarter than them when we now say it's an insulting sound? Do we change the sounds of our traditional songs because they sound awkward to our modern ears, or because some stupid European mocked us for singing them?
Place Names
Where the words "Indian" or "chief" or "squaw" have been used in place names, they usually reference some memorable person or event, without a negative reference implied (unless the event was a massacre of white settlers). Thus we have "Indian Island" where the Penobscot people live, "Squaw Betty," in Bristol County, Massachusetts, recalling a local Wampanoag woman, and many "Squaw Rock" locations remembering female chiefs. Many "squaw" place names recognize ancient places where women did traditional activities. Without a very good understanding of history, it is a mistake to erase the the lives, stories, and voices of the women whose presence was acknowledged by the original naming.
As a traditionalist and historian, I am deeply suspicious of how modern political attitudes are often applied to the past without careful consideration of origins. Hitler effectively slandered one of the oldest and most universal sacred symbols, the world wheel or "swastika," by appropriating it for his own purposes. Native American people who dare to use this traditional symbol today are scorned by the ill-informed. We, as indigenous peoples, must not let other cultures, even other "Native American" cultures, define, and defile, our languages and symbols. I even hesitate to use the term "Native American," since it implies that we are Native citizens of a colonialist power that conquered and divided the original nations in this continent (none of whom were "American"), but that's another discussion.
The issue of Indian mascots and appropriate usage of Indian statues, images, words, names, etc., in non-Indian communities is far more complex than some activists wish to believe. Racist intent may be the case where the images are used to consciously erase, defame, misrepresent or overly romanticize. But in many regions, the use of Indian images and place names supports the historic presence of local tribal nations, many of whom have yet to be recognized by the federal government.
Many New England Indians celebrate historically accurate statues and monuments and place names. That doesn't, however, mean they want to see a warrior with a western Plains headdress on the floor of the school gymnasium. The northeastern Algonkian peoples held back the tide of colonization for 400 years, fighting, adapting, and negotiating treaties in order to stay in our traditional territories. We shared our culture, foodways, stories, and languages to such a degree that much of what we think of as quintessentially "Yankee" today is in fact "Indian." Our complicated history included efforts to teach the newcomers respect while defending our land, families, and culture.
The real issue for American Indian people today, across America, is not just words and mascots, but the forging of new relationships based on mutual respect and understanding, in traditional homelands, beyond the stereotypes. And the more pressing issues, of adequate food, housing, shelter, and opportunity, will not be served by attacking traditional languages in the name of political correctness.
A more useful resolution of place names issues would be one that acknowledges and enforces respect for indigenous peoples and languages. Before we erase names, we must erase misunderstandings. How do we rename every "Squaw Rock," without forgetting the history? One way is to reclaim the original language. "Squaw Peak" might become "Ktsioskwa," "great woman," or another appropriate name chosen by the indigenous people.
Indigenous people must publicly declare that we will no longer allow our words, names, skin color, beliefs, etc., to be used against us. Whenever the word "squaw" is used as an insult, my response is: "I do not accept that definition. Among my people, WOMEN are honored and respected. The sound "squaw," regardless of its spelling, is OUR word for woman, and it is NOT to be used as an insult! When I hear it spoken by Native peoples, in its proper context, I hear the voices of the ancestors. I am reminded of powerful grandmothers who nurtured our people and fed the strangers, of proud women chiefs who stood up against them, and of mothers and daughters and sisters who still stand here today. In their honor I demand that our language, our women, and our history, be treated with respect.
Thank you for listening.
Wlibomkanni, travel well.
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MaryPhylGuides: 0 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 9,112 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
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montezumawellGuides: 6 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 7,478 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
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Montini
Az Rep columnist EJ Montini did a real nice column Sunday on Squaw Peak, or whatever its name is.
He waxes pretty eloquent in describing the Peak and its place in the metroplex. Some of his phrases are pretty neat. Here's a fun one, "Airline passengers flying into town notice the mountains. From the mountain, however, airplanes slowly lowering themselves to the airport are like fat descending flies." "Fat descending flies!" Cool!
Here's another one: "At this time of year...the rust-colored boulders not far from the trail head will be as cold as gun metal and the air will hang heavy, low and damp. A thin filmy cloud may cover the top of the peak like a wind-blown tissue snagged on a witch's hat."
"Wind-blown tissue snagged on a witch's hat!" COOL, EJ!
Oh, and one other thing--when the AZ Rep trumpted the renaming of the Peak on Page One the other day they accompanied their lead story with a picture of hikers on top of the Peak. We can't ever recall a picture of hikers being used to illustrate a Page One Lead Story in any major daily newspaper we've ever read. Can you? Interesting. Taken completely aside from the pros and cons of the renaming process, all this focus on hiking and a trail is pretty cool.
J&S
He waxes pretty eloquent in describing the Peak and its place in the metroplex. Some of his phrases are pretty neat. Here's a fun one, "Airline passengers flying into town notice the mountains. From the mountain, however, airplanes slowly lowering themselves to the airport are like fat descending flies." "Fat descending flies!" Cool!
Here's another one: "At this time of year...the rust-colored boulders not far from the trail head will be as cold as gun metal and the air will hang heavy, low and damp. A thin filmy cloud may cover the top of the peak like a wind-blown tissue snagged on a witch's hat."
"Wind-blown tissue snagged on a witch's hat!" COOL, EJ!
Oh, and one other thing--when the AZ Rep trumpted the renaming of the Peak on Page One the other day they accompanied their lead story with a picture of hikers on top of the Peak. We can't ever recall a picture of hikers being used to illustrate a Page One Lead Story in any major daily newspaper we've ever read. Can you? Interesting. Taken completely aside from the pros and cons of the renaming process, all this focus on hiking and a trail is pretty cool.
J&S
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azhiker96Guides: 0 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 946 d | RS: 2Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
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MaryPhyl, I've asked a couple of indian friends about the renaming of Squaw Peak. It was not high on their list of things to do. Neither found the word particularly offensive.
I think it's the usage of a word, or the perceived intent behind it that can be offensive. Take the "N" word for example. Black people can have a conversation and use this word without raising an eyebrow. However, if someone who is not part of the group uses the word, it raises hackles.
Regarding renaming Squaw peak, I don't think anyone has ever asked all the tribal members in the state their opinion. It would seem prudent to do that just to make sure a vocal minority is not making decisions for an apathetic majority.
Now that the peak has been renamed, maybe the govenor can work on some of the lesser issues in the state such as the budget crisis.
I think it's the usage of a word, or the perceived intent behind it that can be offensive. Take the "N" word for example. Black people can have a conversation and use this word without raising an eyebrow. However, if someone who is not part of the group uses the word, it raises hackles.
Regarding renaming Squaw peak, I don't think anyone has ever asked all the tribal members in the state their opinion. It would seem prudent to do that just to make sure a vocal minority is not making decisions for an apathetic majority.
Now that the peak has been renamed, maybe the govenor can work on some of the lesser issues in the state such as the budget crisis.
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az_natureboyGuides: 0 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: none | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
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Really, what's in a name?
This morning, I got up at 4:30am, and headed for the Squaw Peak, a popular hike in the city of Phoenix. Having been their so many times, I must have had the perfect map drawn in my subconscious mind. I must have known every turn, every bump and every dump along the way. It takes 27 minutes to drive to the peak from my home. With one of the windows crack open, the only noise I could hear in my car was that of the whistling wind. In the background, however, I had the radio tuned to the NPR.
Suddenly, my ears picked up the word "Squaw" from that background sound. I became alert, rolled the window up and raised the volume on radio. "In honor of the first
American Indian woman killed in combat, henceforth the peak is named Lori Piestewa", said the voice on radio.
Have you heard of the ‘power of words’? Well, I experienced it this morning. It is tremendous! It can change your world in a split moment. My whole morning mission was suddenly rendered aimless. I felt, as if, I didn't know where I was going anymore. I knew how to get to the Squaw Peak, but suddenly this landmark disappeared from the face of this earth. I had no map in my brain to find myself something called Piestewa. Trust me, correctly pronouncing this Hopi Indian name seemed even more difficult than spelling it. I can't even say the name of the peak, how shall I climb it, let alone finding it in this vast city. My brain raced faster than my car speeding on the highway.
The word 'Squaw', in local Indian language, has a derogatory meaning for human love-nest. And let’s not mention of the 'peaks'. The Squaw Peak Park doesn't remind me of human body parts when I'm there; it reminds me of the peaks and valleys. No really! It is all about nature, the sunsets and sunrises, simmering city lights, the spring flowers, fresh air, and of course some exercise. Now that's my opinion. But some souls in our local government can never give up thinking of ‘political correctness’ when they visit the park. Alas, not everyone is alike! So about 5 years ago they decided to change the name. But change it to what? That seemed more difficult to answer than expected.
So finally our George W. came to their help and declared a war on Iraq. Sorry, I stand corrected; he declared a war on Saddam. Anyhow, in all that followed, our very precious lady from Arizona, named Lori Piestewa perished. Presto! Her sacrifice answered the question that the local government couldn’t, for past 5 years. Immediately it was agreed upon that the peak be named after her.
Guys, guys, guys...I say, up until now, I never thought about women or their body parts, when I climbed the Squaw Peak, but now on, forever this lovely lady, a mother of two, Lori Piestewa, shall always walk with me up the peak. And every time I look up to the mountain from the valley of the sun, I shall pay my due respects to the people who have perished to the whims of their political leaders - may they be from the deserts of Texas or Tikrit. Really, what’s in a name? :idea:
Suddenly, my ears picked up the word "Squaw" from that background sound. I became alert, rolled the window up and raised the volume on radio. "In honor of the first
American Indian woman killed in combat, henceforth the peak is named Lori Piestewa", said the voice on radio.
Have you heard of the ‘power of words’? Well, I experienced it this morning. It is tremendous! It can change your world in a split moment. My whole morning mission was suddenly rendered aimless. I felt, as if, I didn't know where I was going anymore. I knew how to get to the Squaw Peak, but suddenly this landmark disappeared from the face of this earth. I had no map in my brain to find myself something called Piestewa. Trust me, correctly pronouncing this Hopi Indian name seemed even more difficult than spelling it. I can't even say the name of the peak, how shall I climb it, let alone finding it in this vast city. My brain raced faster than my car speeding on the highway.
The word 'Squaw', in local Indian language, has a derogatory meaning for human love-nest. And let’s not mention of the 'peaks'. The Squaw Peak Park doesn't remind me of human body parts when I'm there; it reminds me of the peaks and valleys. No really! It is all about nature, the sunsets and sunrises, simmering city lights, the spring flowers, fresh air, and of course some exercise. Now that's my opinion. But some souls in our local government can never give up thinking of ‘political correctness’ when they visit the park. Alas, not everyone is alike! So about 5 years ago they decided to change the name. But change it to what? That seemed more difficult to answer than expected.
So finally our George W. came to their help and declared a war on Iraq. Sorry, I stand corrected; he declared a war on Saddam. Anyhow, in all that followed, our very precious lady from Arizona, named Lori Piestewa perished. Presto! Her sacrifice answered the question that the local government couldn’t, for past 5 years. Immediately it was agreed upon that the peak be named after her.
Guys, guys, guys...I say, up until now, I never thought about women or their body parts, when I climbed the Squaw Peak, but now on, forever this lovely lady, a mother of two, Lori Piestewa, shall always walk with me up the peak. And every time I look up to the mountain from the valley of the sun, I shall pay my due respects to the people who have perished to the whims of their political leaders - may they be from the deserts of Texas or Tikrit. Really, what’s in a name? :idea:
Laugh and the world laughs with you...
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azrocksGuides: 0 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: none | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
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The crucial issue is not the precise meaning of the word 'squaw', but why a mountain would be named Squaw Peak.
Conical features have often been named after breasts, for example the Grand Tetons ( Big T*ts ) State Park.
Naming two adjacent conical formations 'Squaw Peak' suggests that the author was thinking lasciviously of a young
naked Indian woman lying on her back over at the rez. That's certainly insulting, and Indians who believe this may feel
that the name perpetuates the concept of the Indian woman as a cheap, easily available sex object. If the Piestawa
family sees it that way, it's no wonder if they feel that renaming Squaw Peak after their daughter just compounds the insult.
However, Piestawa is a pretty name, and when the memory of Squaw Peak is gone, the memory of Lori will remain,
so I am in favor of the change.
Conical features have often been named after breasts, for example the Grand Tetons ( Big T*ts ) State Park.
Naming two adjacent conical formations 'Squaw Peak' suggests that the author was thinking lasciviously of a young
naked Indian woman lying on her back over at the rez. That's certainly insulting, and Indians who believe this may feel
that the name perpetuates the concept of the Indian woman as a cheap, easily available sex object. If the Piestawa
family sees it that way, it's no wonder if they feel that renaming Squaw Peak after their daughter just compounds the insult.
However, Piestawa is a pretty name, and when the memory of Squaw Peak is gone, the memory of Lori will remain,
so I am in favor of the change.
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SunDevil3Guides: 3 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 780 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: 3,723 d
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I didn't read everyone else's comments so if this has already been noted (as it seems pretty obvious to me) forgive the redundancy.
It seems to me that renaming (which I thought took place a couple years ago) this mountain has long been the mission of the those who believe that 'squaw' is an offensive term. If this is the case, isn't renaming Squaw Peak after a Native American woman only all the more offensive? Squaw was a term for such a person (not in English, as I recall) so why is it offensive anyway?
I have the greatest respect for all of our armed forces past and present, at home and overseas, and I am all for honoring them publically but this was simply a matter of politically correct BS that finally wore down tradition and common sense.
... then again, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
It seems to me that renaming (which I thought took place a couple years ago) this mountain has long been the mission of the those who believe that 'squaw' is an offensive term. If this is the case, isn't renaming Squaw Peak after a Native American woman only all the more offensive? Squaw was a term for such a person (not in English, as I recall) so why is it offensive anyway?
I have the greatest respect for all of our armed forces past and present, at home and overseas, and I am all for honoring them publically but this was simply a matter of politically correct BS that finally wore down tradition and common sense.
... then again, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
"Being unselfish is a natural high, like hiking or paint thinner."
- Homer J Simpson
- Homer J Simpson
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te_waGuides: 3 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 1,666 d | RS: 2Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: 1,866 d
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I cant imagine why this particular mountain was targeted for political grandstanding, there are at least SIX squaw peaks in this state, not to mention some of them on Indian land, and then theres squaw valley, squaw creeks, squaw canyon, etc...
At least we've got the Pink Taco, if all else fails.
At least we've got the Pink Taco, if all else fails.
squirrel!
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azhiker96Guides: 0 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 946 d | RS: 2Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
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Dang, I have gone through our constitution and the bill of rights and can't find a guarantee to not be offended. I think a lot of the PC nazis are just little people trying to make a big splash by whining about the small stuff. I would suggest we fix it all, rename or remove all indian names from our locations and sports teams. No more Braves, Indians, or Redskins. But you know what, I bet there would be plenty of tribal members who would object to that. Plus, the PC police would just move on to other offensive things like entertainers. Fats Domino, what an offensive name. He should be forced to change it to just Domino or maybe Large but Comfortable with myself Domino. Okay, rant over. Let's see what else I need to do today.


"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it."
~ Mark Twain
~ Mark Twain
contribute to this member driven resource
ie: RS > Save/Share after hikes


-
jeremy77777Guides: 0 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 8,206 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
- Joined: Mar 28 2002 3:11 pm
- City, State: Queen Creek, AZ
contribute to this member driven resource
ie: RS > Save/Share after hikes

