National Parks Lack of Help

[AZHikr4444]

I gotta vent.

Ya know, in just about every single book or article on hiking there is always the caveat at the end of a trail description (especially if it is remote or strenuous) to contact the NPS or the Ranger District or whomever for road, trail, water, weather or other conditions. Is it just me? The few times I have actually been compelled to do so, I get the most obnoxious, unhelpful people. Jeeezzz. Ed had it right.

Last August I called the RD to ask about the water conditions in Chevelon Canyon. I received a fair warning of " small trickles that you might be able to filter". When I took the trip- the creek was 40 feet wide and deep enough to raft down! Jeezzz..

Another time I called and asked about the road conditions to a very popular HAZ described peak- the person whom I spoke with didn't even know what I was talking about.

Today, I call CNP - Island district in Utah and asked about road conditions on White Rim Road- and had the distinct displeasure of talking to some condescending knuckledhead who advised me to "check the forecast" when I asked if there was snow down there. I just wanted to know if there was snow on the road! Argghhhh!! I understand that not every NPS employee can be out actually "rangering" the wilds, but jeezz..how about manning those centers with people who actually have dirt on their bootheels.

Okay- I'm done. For the sake of good preparation, I shall continue to use word-of-month of fellow hikers, books, articles, trip descriptions and websites from such invaluable resources such as this one, and leave the NPS personnel to drinking coffee, handing out maps, taking my money and the other bureaucratic nonsense which they seem to excel at.

Any NPS employees in the present company are of course, excluded from the above description. :roll:

Only bitter for a little while,
Mike

[Shi]

Mike, Glad to see you back in full form! Sorry about your situation, but you know the saying, "those who can, DO! Those who can't....well, they just don't!" They can't even teach it, if they don't understand what it is that they are doing. The forum is the best place to get appropriate information. Good luck! Let me know when you're ready for the trail. Sorry that you're missing out this weekend. Mary

[wetbeaverlover]

In response to AZHikr4444's reply: I think a lot of the problem is the lack of numbers of Park and Forest service employees vs the HUGE numbers of people flooding into the Southwest. These people are generally pretty overworked and under appreciated. Maybe the person or persons you talked to were stressed out. I know exactly how you feel, it can be frustrating. It also probably doesnt help that the Park and Forest service budgets are being constantly being cut, while the visitors to the wild places are growing in number musch to fast to properly handle. I don't suppose it will get better anytime soon considering that we are devoting resources to the tune of 1/2 trillion dollars and counting to war. Guess our fearless leaders have their priorities.

[joebartels]

I believe most of what the NPS or ranger districts know is what is reported to them by outdoorsmen. Heavily used areas such as the GC, Sedona and Superstitions will likely be better covered. Personally I haven't called for conditions but have called for general help on access and they always seem to be pretty helpful.

A ranger I chatted with a few years ago mentioned a good portion of their time is spent picking up garbage and dealing with the politics.

on a side note...
Hopefully this will encourage non-participating members to log their trips.

[hikeaz]

In response to AZHikr4444's reply: I think a lot of the problem is the lack of numbers of Park and Forest service employees vs the HUGE numbers of people flooding into the Southwest. These people are generally pretty overworked and under appreciated. Maybe the person or persons you talked to were stressed out. I know exactly how you feel, it can be frustrating. It also probably doesnt help that the Park and Forest service budgets are being constantly being cut, while the visitors to the wild places are growing in number musch to fast to properly handle. I don't suppose it will get better anytime soon considering that we are devoting resources to the tune of 1/2 trillion dollars and counting to war. Guess our fearless leaders have their priorities.

The Rangers at Peralta & First Water (and the "Red Rock Pass" areas) need to take a day or two off from writing parking tickets,and hit the trail ; maybe then they would be able to amaze us with their backcountry information gathering abilities. If they would provide the backcountry traveler with up-to-date info, and not just a rest room and fee kiosks, they might not encounter such resistance from the public regarding the excessive fees.




Until then, THANKS, Joe, for this forum, which provides a conduit to exchange and glean accurate outdoor information.


kurt

[Davis2001r6]

I can't speak for any other areas but whenever I have called the Backcountry office at the Grand Canyon, I've recieved nothing but good info from friendly people.

TIM

[wetbeaverlover]

In response to hikeaz's reply: I agree with you, if the person you contacted at a ranger district or national park service was rude too you. Not good to be rude in any public service capicity. But the fact remains, the forest service IS very underfunded. Im sure that most forest service employees would love nothing more than to be hiking the back country. Unfortunatley there are LOTS and LOTS of people vandalizing the public places, looting the archeological resources and using the National Forests as marijuana farms and meth cook sites. Recently they busted a HUGE pot farm in the Fossil Creek wilderness. A few years back they had a gang shooting at Cave Springs campground in Oak Creek Canyon, car burgleries are pandemic at many trailheads, trash is dumped everywhere. Icould go on and on in defense about the wanton lack of respect for the public lands by lots of users. Im sure that many of the Forest service employees feel like they are standing there with their finger in the hole in the dam, but the dam has already washed away. Anyway, Im not taking an antagonizing stance, just pointing out that most of the employees are doing the best they can, with the resources available to them. The Forest service, at the raner or general employee level do not dictate National forest policy. As for writing tickets at Peralta, if people were not violating parking laws, there would be no need for ticketing them. Enjoy the backcountry.

[RedRoxx44]

My solution; hike somewhere you don't need a permit, or can get a self service one. Plan your trip and go anyway, regardless of weather. Prepare self and vehicle for a week's worth of self preservation if stranded.

Talk to the nice park, BLM, whatever rangers when you see them, and ignore about one half to three fourths of some advice you hear regarding conditions, etc. Have fun.

Example: Hiking in Grand Gulch a couple of years ago after flooding, hikers were asked to report in on trail conditions and water availability and status of springs. They just didn't have enough manpower to go out and check all the areas.

[Davis2001r6]

As for writing tickets at Peralta, if people were not violating parking laws, there would be no need for ticketing them.

2 of the 3 times I've parked at a trail with an automatic (non-manned) parking machine it did not work. The first time I paid but it wouldn't print a receipt. The second time the machine wasn't working all together and recieved a ticket.

[AZHikr4444]

In response to Shi's reply:

Hey Mary!

Thanks for responding. I'm about 75%, but so restless to get out there I can't stand it! Like most of us, after a few weeks of standing on only pavement, I get crabby!

I'm headin' to Utah for Christmas, but I am still taking it somewhat easy. I think by early-mid January I'll be back in full form. I better be or I'll be completely insane by then. Well, wait a minute.. I kinda already am!

I was bitter for a bit but now I'm better!

Mike

[big_load]

In response to AZHikr4444's reply:

Hello!

I've certainly experienced difficulty with this. The Mesa Ranger district usually has one or two people designated as "backcountry rangers" who try to stay up to date on the Supes, but as others have noted , they don't get out much themselves and rely heavily on information supplied to them by people like us. I also think they are very conservative in their responses out of liability concerns. They usually tell me that there is no water in the Supes, period.

After learning this, I've tried to be conscientious about reporting water conditions to the ranger districts where I hike. I've had very mixed responses. In a few cases I'm pretty sure it went in one ear and out the other without being written down, even though I'm sure nobody else had reported on it recently. A lot seems to depend on the personality of the individual ranger and the type of interactions they usually have with the public, which are probably skewed toward people who make trouble or get themselves into trouble.

[hikeaz]

I can't speak for any other areas but whenever I have called the Backcountry office at the Grand Canyon, I've recieved nothing but good info from friendly people.

TIM

Highly concur.
The BCO @ GCNP is/should be the model as to how to run a backcountry operation. The employees are all hikers (some going on 20-25 mile day hikes on their days off) and are as patient as they come.
They also are happy to pass along recently gathered trail condition data, they even are careful to "screen" the data gatherer to ensure accurate data.

[big_load]

2 of the 3 times I've parked at a trail with an automatic (non-manned) parking machine it did not work. The first time I paid but it wouldn't print a receipt. The second time the machine wasn't working all together and recieved a ticket.

I've encountered (and complained about) broken parking machines pretty often too. I think the failure rate for my visits has been three out of five. I don't know what the problem is. Maybe they have poor environmental tolerance. Maybe people abuse them. A skeptical person might note that the ability to collect fines reduces the financial incentive to keep the machines working.

[azbackpackr]

I had the exact same experience when contacting the ranger district about the exact same hike. They told me Chevelon might have a little trickle of water! And I got there and it was like a river! I don't know if this guy hadn't been there or if he was just having his fun.

Usually I have good luck with these folks--they tell me if they know the answer, and if they don't they say so, or tell me whom to contact.

[Teton]

Mike,
I just called the NPS and asked about rain and weather conditions 2 days ago. I got no help at all, infact she said that she couldnt even remember if it had rained or not lately. I am sorry but there hasnt been any rain in months and she doesnt remember if it had rained or not. I asked her if the other girl that I knew was there because she always new it all. She knew what the weather was and what it was going to be. She knew trail conditions and everything. She would also answer all questions on anything else I asked her with a truthful answer and never an I dont know. It is to bad she left to persue other paths in life. So like some of the other posts say that the NPS offices are under staffed and probably under paid. With her being a new NPS employee it shows that there is a lot of turn over and not enough training. I think that is what it is. There isnt any good training and then not enough pay for them to care. They are just sitting in a room answering a phone wasting electricity, cutting down trees with paperwork for those people who like to distroy our wilderness areas. I will stick to this site for the best info. now.

Happy Trails!
B

[coloradoscott]

I too have been put off by some of the rangers lack of data....how tough would it be to have a nice active database of specifics (such as water sources) that could get updated. I had to deal with a clueless ranger in Needles district of Canyonlands last fall, but I have generally had great experiences with the BC staff and rangers at Capitol Reef and Grand Canyon. Rocky Mtn. is good too, but they are swamped and understaffed.

I hate it when the ranger has the condescending attitude of "what qualifies you to be here in the first place?" as opposed to having some customer service decorum and assistance. Realistically, the GC is one major park that sees way too many people get in well over their head and require rescuing...other parks are much "safer" for the average Winnebago tourist.

[Pua]

Remember also that some of the "rangers" are interns with the Student Conservation Association. Due to lack of budget of NPS they use these kids, fresh-out-of-college newbies, who have to learn on the run and then staff a trailhead or desk. They're also paid about $100/week (plus housing) . Speaking from experience. It's unfortunate for those who want real information.

So be kind to the young ones.

[Hoffmaster]

Whatever happened to just going out and being prepared for whatever nature might bring? Why do we need to grill the rangers on every detail of a trip? If we go out knowing exactly what to expect, doesn't that take away from the wilderness experience? I think so. It sounds like some of you should be car camping instead of backpacking.

You can't expect that the rangers who answer the phones are going to know every detail of every trail. If they were all lucky enough to be out hiking all day, checking every detail, there would be no one around to answer the phones in the first place. Maybe that would be better.

[Teetsb7]

I totaly agree with Mat.
Part of the adventure is dealing with some amount of unkown and being able to navigate around these hardships no matter how large or small they turn out to be.

To me thats what makes the time I spend in the wilderness so special.

[joebartels]

Whatever happened to just going out and being prepared for whatever nature might bring

Amen


Then again anybody that feels there's a "National Parks Lack of Help" should certainly stand up and set it straight.