Black Top Mesa: Are they Spanish or Indian Petroglyphs??

azbackpackr · Post by **azbackpackr** » Nov 25 2006 4:10 pm

OK, this has been bugging me. If you take a hike to Black Top Mesa you can find these markings on the rocks. Everyone says they are Spanish hieroglyphics. I went, I saw, I disagree. What I saw looked like what I've seen all over the Southwest, which I have written college papers on, and have guided many a trip to show people up here in the White Mtns. What I saw looked like the ancient Indian petroglyphs that are fairly common in many areas. They have the pecked-in look that took days to accomplish. Why would the Spanish sit there for days pecking with an antler point or other object in order to carve these 'glyphs? It just simply doesn't make any sense. Ever read anything about those Spanish people? Why would they do that?

Maybe I didn't see the Spanish ones? Maybe there are both kinds there? If not, there are an awful lot of people out there perpetuating a myth, it would seem! Trail guide writers, various journalists, map makers, writers of HAZ forum topics, etc!

Someone care to take me up on this? Maybe there is an actual expert in our midst! Someone from a university with a degree in archaeology?

nonot · Post by **nonot** » Nov 25 2006 5:52 pm

When did you go and where did you find them? I was just up there today and couldn't find anything except graffiti?

azbackpackr · Post by **azbackpackr** » Nov 25 2006 6:55 pm

It has been several years since I was there. They were about where it shows they are on the Goldfield topo, on the northeast rim of Black Top Mesa. You sort of have to walk the rim, looking at the rocks right on the rim there. They didn't seem hard to locate. There are photos of some of them on this website. I had some film photos I had taken, right now I can't find them to verify I saw the same ones. Anyway, the photos on this website look like Indian petroglyphs to me, too.

djui5 · Post by **djui5** » Nov 25 2006 11:32 pm

Ha! Those pesky Spanish

Problem with the Superstitions is there has been so much vandalism up there. There are 2 sets of "signs" on Black Top Mesa. There is the "map", and there is the sun burst with the ORO written next to it. The sun burst and ORO are "suppost" to be Spanish gold markers. ORO meaning gold, and the sunburst meaning below, or here. Obviously there isn't any gold there. These markers were put there by a certain someone, avid Dutch hunter. They made a movie about one of his books. Name is B***y S***m...you know.

The "map" could have originated as ancient Indian petroglyphs, but was modified at some point to look like a Spanish treasure map. Who did it is unclear. Maybe the same person that put the ORO and sun burst up there?

Or maybe they are real, and were put there by the Spanish to mark their trails?

btw, that "map" does not look like normal Indian petroglyphs to me, personally. The design is different.

azbackpackr · Post by **azbackpackr** » Nov 26 2006 5:30 am

This photo from HAZ looks like a petroglyph to me:

http://hikearizona.com/dex2/igallery/im ... hp?id=1214

I haven't seen a photo of the "oro" one, anybody got one? I didn't see it on my hike there. I can't find my photos, but they're around in the house somewhere, film ones, though.

Up here in the White Mtns. we have so many odd petroglyphs, some of them are just downright spooky. There are thousands of them around here, within 20 miles of Springerville, and I have given up thinking I have seen all forms of them. Sure, we have the spirals, animals, etc., but also some you can't define.

A couple of things you look for. Modern graffiti usually has a scratched in look. The ancient ones don't look that way. Also, with the hundreds of years since the ancient ones were done, a little desert patina has started to soften and cover them.

djui5 · Post by **djui5** » Nov 26 2006 3:31 pm

Yeah, that's the map I was speaking of. Indians didn't draw things like that. I have some photos of good Indian petroglyphs in the area if you'd like to see them.
I know they look like petroglyphs because of the color, creation, etc, but what is drawn there isn't typical of Indians.

Here is the sun burst. I have the oro somewhere, can't find it though.

azbackpackr · Post by **azbackpackr** » Nov 27 2006 5:34 am

Ok, you do have a point about the "map" not being of any usual shape for a petroglyph. The sun looks like one, though. Someone posted the ORO for me on a different website, so now I've seen it, but if you find it you could still post it here if you want to.

djui5 · Post by **djui5** » Nov 27 2006 3:31 pm

Ok I'll do that. I gotta hike up to that area again soon anyway. Would be fun to find those and get some personal pictures of them, that is if the ORO is still up there.

The sun and ORO were put there by a modern man, so I'm positive those are not Indian or Spanish

djui5 · Post by **djui5** » Jan 01 2007 12:39 am

Here is the "oro". It's right under the sun and "veras" markings. I almost didn't see it, you have to cover the rock with a shadow to see the oro marking. Also the "spanish map" is on the back side of the sunburst rock. Gotta be very careful though, as it's on the very edge of the cliff. Don't wanna fall off there, you probably won't be walking out of the mountains.
Also to note is the "Jacob Waltz 1888" marked on a rock right behind the "oro" rock, kinda where I took the picture. If you stand right next to the sunburst and look West, you'll see it near the ground about 2' away. It's funny how all of this is congested into a few square feet.

joebartels · Post by **joebartels** » Jan 01 2007 8:10 am

glyphs are frequently concentrated in a popular area
be it a viewing/guard/hunting/feast or lounge point
same seems to hold true for variations over hundreds/thousands of years too

any thoughts on how that rock split?
Doesn't seem to be anything around to fall off of. If a rock underneath slipped out it doesn't seem like it would split unless it was already fractured. Looks a little big to heave!

What does a zig zag represent?

azbackpackr · Post by **azbackpackr** » Jan 01 2007 8:33 am

I heard recently that the ORO and some of the others were put there for the filming of a movie many years ago. I'll try to find out where I heard that, let you guys know.

Al_HikesAZ · Post by **Al_HikesAZ** » Jan 01 2007 10:32 am

joe bartels wrote:What does a zig zag represent?

Smoke 'em if you've got 'em?

http://www.zigzag.com/

djui5 · Post by **djui5** » Jan 01 2007 1:25 pm

joe bartels wrote: any thoughts on how that rock split?

I think someone wanted to take the sun-burst with them, and decided not to, OR they moved this rock from somewhere else and it broke in the move. I think the latter is more likely.

What does a zig zag represent?

It's supposed to be a distance marker. These are "Spanish" signs, not Indian.

djui5 · Post by **djui5** » Jan 01 2007 1:28 pm

azbackpackr wrote:I heard recently that the ORO and some of the others were put there for the filming of a movie many years ago. I'll try to find out where I heard that, let you guys know.

This would be for the movie "Lust for Gold". The movie was based roughly on Barry Storms book "Thunder God's Gold". Barry Storm is reputed to be responsible for some of these markings, but not all. I believe he carved the word "oro" into the rock. I think the sunburst and "zigzags" were there previously. I also think the map on the other side of this rock was there previously also. The "Jacob Waltz 1888" was put there by someone, and I doubt it was Barry Storm. I also highly doubt it was Dutchie. What's really funny is someone carved "Lust for Dust" on a rock across the mountain from these

I also found this, seems the "Peralta Stones" lead here also..

nonot · Post by **nonot** » Jan 01 2007 1:59 pm

I did see that "The End" graffiti, theres alot more near that spot. Where were the sunburst markings in relation to that, straight east?

djui5 · Post by **djui5** » Jan 01 2007 3:23 pm

Pretty much, straight East at the edge of the mountain. I'll put the location on a topo and post it here in a little bit.

djui5 · Post by **djui5** » Jan 01 2007 4:05 pm

Here, it's marked on this map. It's actually closer to the right edge of the little "mountain" logo than where the circle is on this map.

nonot · Post by **nonot** » Jan 01 2007 4:40 pm

Ahh, good to know. In case anyone's wondering there isn't anything near where that circle drawn is except rocks and cacti.

joebartels · Post by **joebartels** » Jan 01 2007 5:47 pm

djui5 wrote:
azbackpackr wrote:I heard recently that the ORO and some of the others were put there for the filming of a movie many years ago. I'll try to find out where I heard that, let you guys know.

This would be for the movie "Lust for Gold". The movie was based roughly on Barry Storms book "Thunder God's Gold". Barry Storm is reputed to be responsible for some of these markings, but not all. I believe he carved the word "oro" into the rock. I think the sunburst and "zigzags" were there previously...

The movie was 1949? and his 1945 book shows them calling them spanish miner's signs. He must have been thinking ahead! At least it fills the consensus.

djui5 · Post by **djui5** » Jan 01 2007 7:00 pm

haha!