Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson & East Verde Closure
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- Tough_Boots
- Posts: 1848
- Joined: Mar 28 2008 7:08 pm
- City, State: Phoenix, AZ
- joebartels
- Posts: 7129
- Joined: Nov 20 1996 12:00 pm
- City, State: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
I'v been wondering all day but can not verify since the HAZ Library was reorganized** in my recent absence. Believe the hike was inspired by https://hikearizona.com/books.php?REV=1&ID=9chumley wrote:Maybe Ellison Creek Cascades is just one of those hiking names that @joebartels invented!?
If it doesn't say Cascades in there then I buttered the muffin.
if so it wasn't my best yet does have some mention when googling Ellison Creek Cascades
** no longer follows Schrettinger subjects and sub-subjects method
more of a random it''ll fit in this box method
almost makes me yearn for dewey decimal
- joe
- trekkin_gecko
- Posts: 567
- Joined: Nov 17 2008 4:30 pm
- City, State: phoenix, az
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
the book "day trips with a splash" lists this area as Ellison creek
the author mentions it is also referred to as cold springs
the author mentions it is also referred to as cold springs
- joebartels
- Posts: 7129
- Joined: Nov 20 1996 12:00 pm
- City, State: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
could be Pancho!
both Day Trips and the HAZ description are 2000
believe Day Trips was technically a tad earlier as he had to recollect data when his vehicle was robbed or such
both Day Trips and the HAZ description are 2000
believe Day Trips was technically a tad earlier as he had to recollect data when his vehicle was robbed or such
- joe
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
I have that book! In fact, I'm pretty sure the first time I went there was because of his book!joebartels wrote:could be Pancho!
Tonya Harding's triple lutz
- Nighthiker
- Posts: 1506
- Joined: Feb 03 2002 6:59 am
- City, State: Payson
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Checked my library:
USGS 15 min. Topo map 1952 Indicates several buildings extreme SW corner of Sec. 30, Cold Springs is labeled. Magnetic Declination is 14 degrees East.
USGS 7.5 min. Topo map 1973, no structure icons, Cold Springs labeled. Magnetic Declination is 14 degrees East.
USGS 7.5 MIN Topo map 2004, no structure icon, Cold Springs labeled though shows the area as private land. Magnetic Declination is 11 1/2 Degrees East.
Tonto National Forest Visitors Map 1975, no campground labeled.
Bob Hirsh's Guide to Camping in Central Arizona (1975) does not list any campgrounds along Houston Mesa Road.
Streamside Trails by Steve Krause (1994) lists a Waterfall and Swimming Hole Hike on page 24 and 25 and list Ellison Creek as moderate 1 mile walk down to a 40' cascading waterfall.
Regarding campgrounds on USFS managed lands, I am aware of former campgrounds not listed or labeled on forest service maps and USGS Topo maps.
USGS 15 min. Topo map 1952 Indicates several buildings extreme SW corner of Sec. 30, Cold Springs is labeled. Magnetic Declination is 14 degrees East.
USGS 7.5 min. Topo map 1973, no structure icons, Cold Springs labeled. Magnetic Declination is 14 degrees East.
USGS 7.5 MIN Topo map 2004, no structure icon, Cold Springs labeled though shows the area as private land. Magnetic Declination is 11 1/2 Degrees East.
Tonto National Forest Visitors Map 1975, no campground labeled.
Bob Hirsh's Guide to Camping in Central Arizona (1975) does not list any campgrounds along Houston Mesa Road.
Streamside Trails by Steve Krause (1994) lists a Waterfall and Swimming Hole Hike on page 24 and 25 and list Ellison Creek as moderate 1 mile walk down to a 40' cascading waterfall.
Regarding campgrounds on USFS managed lands, I am aware of former campgrounds not listed or labeled on forest service maps and USGS Topo maps.
jk
- joebartels
- Posts: 7129
- Joined: Nov 20 1996 12:00 pm
- City, State: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
chumley wrote:Not that I'd take AllTrails as gospel, but that's just a GPS track that somebody posted and named Cold Springs. AT doesn't have a hike description by that name, though it does have descriptions listed for Water Wheel Falls and Ellison Creek Trail, both of which end at the cascade.Tough_Boots wrote:The listing on Alltrails (created in 2010) calls it Cold Springs so there is some evidence to it being a commonly used name.
But it certainly seems as if there are locals who call it Cold Spring. I was just curious since I hadn't heard that name used before.
chumley wrote:@hikeazIs there something useful on the map you attached that I'm missing?chumley wrote:Cold Spring is on Ellison Creek on private ranch property.
Pre-1960, topo maps refer to Ellison Ranch as Cold Spring Ranch. Which makes sense since it was built adjacent to Cold Spring.
Cold Spring Campground at the end of FR420 is referenced in the HAZ writeup, but that seems to have disappeared over the years as well. It may have been on old FS maps, it isn't on any of the USGS historical topos.
I find it interesting that if locals knew of it as Cold Springs swimming hole that name didn't get more widespread use over the years. Maybe Ellison Creek Cascades is just one of those hiking names that @joebartels invented!?
"The censorship method ... is that of handing the job over to some frail and erring mortal man, and making him omnipotent on the assumption that his official status will make him infallible and omniscient."
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
I should have been more clear. I was talking about the name being used to identify the swimming hole, not the spring (which I referenced in reply #1, so obviously I had heard that name beforechumley wrote:I was just curious since I hadn't heard that name used before.

Either way, I was wrong and have heard of it before, because I own and have read the book that tells the world it is also known as Cold Springs.
Viva Pancho!

Tonya Harding's triple lutz
- PrestonSands
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Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
I remember always hearing my friends refer to the Ellison Creek cascades area as "Cold Springs", back when I lived in Payson.
"As soon as I can I’m sneaking back in them mountains..." -Johnny Paycheck
- SpiderLegs
- Posts: 905
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- City, State: Tucson, AZ
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Took me a couple minutes to figure out, but I've gone camping in the area and had this spot marked as a place to check out. Instead checked out a creek flowing up the street near Whispering Pines. That's a beautiful area that attracts a ton of people on the weekends. We send out an advance team on Wednesday to snag a weekend camping spot when we head up there with friends.
See my pics on Instagram @tucsonexplorer
- SuperstitionGuy
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Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
With the increasing use of the streams coming off of the rim country I wonder if it is time to consider flood warning sensors that could transmit to a central monitoring system as well as trigger an immediate alarm down stream of a flood sensing sensor itself. The technology is certainly available and I wonder if such a system anywhere in the world is already in use. Think solar powered and wireless. 

A man's body may grow old, but inside his spirit can still be as young and restless as ever.
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Another victim of Pixel Trivia.
Current avatar courtesy of Snakemarks
- Garth McCann from the movie Second Hand Lions
Another victim of Pixel Trivia.
Current avatar courtesy of Snakemarks
- sneakySASQUATCH
- Posts: 518
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- City, State: Pike National Forest, Co
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
They monitor rainfall in Ute Pass through gauges,video, and and who knows what else. If it meets a certain criteria I believe .5" / Hour (it may have changed with all the flood mitigation over the last 3 Years) there are gates at the bottom of the pass and up by my house that come down blocking the entire highway both directions. They also dispatch snow plows throughout the pass for immediate clean up when there is forecast that could lead to a flash flood warning. Our creek regularly flash floods when it rains up in divide or Woodland park without a drop in our area. Of course 4 people died in the creek during the first summer after the Waldo Canyon fire before the mitigation and precautions were implemented.

Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
I've heard people suggest a tornado siren type warning system for the Water Wheel area, because it gets so much traffic from people not familiar with the usual hazards. This is the worst tragedy anyone can remember in the area, but not the only one, and just last year there was a very near miss that could have been just as tragic.
The problem with Water Wheel is that you can't really see the Ellison Creek headwaters when you're down in the creek; hard to tell if it's getting rain or not. It's eight miles away, so if you hear thunder, it's only going to be distant rumbles. No cell reception. Not much radio reception and the local radio stations (KMOG and I forget the other one) don't usually broadcast weather alerts.
There are also NO warning signs at the parking lots. They need to be giant, neon bright, and in multiple locations.
The problem with Water Wheel is that you can't really see the Ellison Creek headwaters when you're down in the creek; hard to tell if it's getting rain or not. It's eight miles away, so if you hear thunder, it's only going to be distant rumbles. No cell reception. Not much radio reception and the local radio stations (KMOG and I forget the other one) don't usually broadcast weather alerts.
There are also NO warning signs at the parking lots. They need to be giant, neon bright, and in multiple locations.
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
"Streamside Trails by Steve Krause (1994) lists a Waterfall and Swimming Hole Hike on page 24 and 25 and list Ellison Creek as moderate 1 mile walk down to a 40' cascading waterfall." - nighthiker
according to the latest printing* of above mentioned book, on page 93 it is indeed labeled "ellison creek trail" but the photo's footnote describes ellison creek as "cascading" down the teired waterfall.
*12/2003
according to the latest printing* of above mentioned book, on page 93 it is indeed labeled "ellison creek trail" but the photo's footnote describes ellison creek as "cascading" down the teired waterfall.
*12/2003
squirrel!
- trekkin_gecko
- Posts: 567
- Joined: Nov 17 2008 4:30 pm
- City, State: phoenix, az
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Forest Service closes recreation sites along the East Verde River Recreation Sites
http://www.paysonroundup.com/news/fores ... 691fe.html
this doesn't show up the the forum forest news yet
not sure the link will work correctly as I've used up my reading allotment
found in payson roundup
http://www.paysonroundup.com/news/fores ... 691fe.html
this doesn't show up the the forum forest news yet
not sure the link will work correctly as I've used up my reading allotment
found in payson roundup
- joebartels
- Posts: 7129
- Joined: Nov 20 1996 12:00 pm
- City, State: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
thx for the heads up, here is the order
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DO ... 551603.pdf
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DO ... 551603.pdf
- joe
- SpiderLegs
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Jul 12 2012 7:35 pm
- City, State: Tucson, AZ
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson & East Verde Closure
The camping spots near Whispering Pines were some of my favorite spots. Got to fall asleep with the sound of a stream gurgling in the background. But the last few times I've gone I knew that it was only a matter of time before the campsites got shut down. Lots of trash and the volunteer fire fighters were complaining about how many unattended fires they had to put out in the area. This is why we can't have nice things.
See my pics on Instagram @tucsonexplorer
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson & East Verde Closure
AZCentral has published a long-form piece on this flood.
https://www.azcentral.com/pages/interac ... od-deaths/
https://www.azcentral.com/pages/interac ... od-deaths/
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson & East Verde Closure
Wow - great, heart-wrenching piece! Thanks for sharing.
Where is the "dislike" button?
- outdoor_lover
- Posts: 1871
- Joined: Aug 19 2011 7:49 pm
- City, State: Scottsdale, AZ
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson & East Verde Closure
I was out of the State when that all happened. That's the first In-Depth thing I've read on it... What a Tragedy..... 

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming, "Wow What a Ride!"