Mount baldy loop camping spots and water sources

[sajor75]

I might go backpacking Mount baldy loop next weekday , looking at the hike arizona map i only found 2 water sources thruout the trail and what is a good spot to camp out, im looking for something close to a water source .

[chumley]

This is what we know for sure:
The benchmark is on tribal land. It is marked on maps as "Baldy 11403" and the designation "Baldy Peak" is printed next to it on USGS topo maps. Going to this point without permission from the WMAT is not permitted.

The ridge to the north of the peak was indicated to be on FS land prior to the 1997 revision of the USGS Mount Baldy quadrangle. From 1997 forward, the USGS Mount Baldy quad shows that even this point is on WMAT land. I have attached an image showing the two versions of the map, each with the boundary of the other also shown.

In the link to Surgent above, he states that the high point is actually on the ridge north of the benchmark peak. There is a large cairn on that ridge and it is sometimes called the "white man's peak".

The US Coast and Geodectic Survey placed the benchmark in 1958 and described it:

ON THE HIGHEST POINT OF BALDY PEAK WHICH IS THE HIGHEST MOUNTAIN IN THE VICINITY. IT IS LOCATED IN THE FORT APACHE INDIAN RESERVATION.

Since surveyors established that the benchmark is on the highest point, I have to assume that the north ridge is not higher.

The maximum elevations that show up using the most current Digital Elevation Models (DEMs) provided by the USGS is 11,424 at the "Baldy" benchmark, and 11,418 at the cairn on the high point of the north ridge.

Unless somebody can provide official documentation that the north ridge has a higher elevation than the "Baldy" benchmark, then it seems to be quite clear the benchmark is set on the highest point. And this is undisputedly on land belonging to the WMAT.

The north ridge sometimes referred to as the white man's peak is not the high point. Whether or not it is on national forest land or WMAT land is up for debate based on the two different maps, which is explained nicely by surgent in the post by @hikeaz above.

[sajor75]

once saw some Apaches in full regalia doing a dance on the far peak, (well beyond the one with the cairn). Maybe about 15 years ago. There's a road to the top over there, I'm told.

That would of been so cool, all i saw was gringos mentioning its no problem to go up Mt Baldy lol.

[hikeaz]

Topo has the north point as higher.

Also, more from the surgent guy... who seems to have done some 'boots on the ground' elevation work.
"I got out my sight level (while on what chum calls 'white man's peak') and looked over at Baldy Peak. Without the level, Baldy Peak, with its pointier profile, looks higher, and without surrounding contextual clues, you'd swear it was about 10 feet higher. But it's not."

"The OED defines summit, in its topological sense, as ‘the topmost point or ridge of a mountain or hill’.
For a peak it gives ‘the pointed top or summit of a mountain; a mountain or hill having a more or less pointed summit, or being conical in form.’"
There is a clear difference here: peaks can be summits, but not all summits are peaks.

So, if the above is so...- Baldy 'Peak' is not necessarily the summit - confirming what Topo shows on its maps and surgent proved with his sight level.... and...

http://www.peakbagger.com/peak.aspx?pid=3962

http://www.peakbagger.com/peak.aspx?pid=3963

https://listofjohn (pay $ite)/customlists?lid=388 (Click on Baldy, Mount map to view full-screen map)

[chumley]

Cool stuff. Interesting points about vocabulary too.

It would be interesting to have a government survey crew go out there again. Maybe the mountain has grown over the years!

I wonder how to account for the USCGS surveyors saying Baldy Peak is the highest point on the highest mountain in the area. Certainly they couldn't have ignored a higher summit just 2000 feet away?

Scott Surgent's sight level vs. a professional survey team?

[hikeaz]

The gubment is clumsy, inefficient and inaccurate in most endeavors.
Topo shows the summit on the north highpoint, not on Baldy Peak, as does Caltopo. I am unsure where they both get their data and if it the exact same source.
But, between a group of summit geeks (summitpost) as well as N.G.Topo and caltopo in one camp and the gubment in the other I will go with the former.

As far as "I wonder how to account for the USCGS surveyors saying Baldy Peak is the highest point on the highest mountain in the area. Certainly they couldn't have ignored a higher summit just 2000 feet away?"
I am thinking that surgent may have shed some light on a possible explanation.
""I got out my sight level and looked over at Baldy Peak. Without the level, Baldy Peak, with its pointier profile, looks higher, and without surrounding contextual clues, you'd swear it was about 10 feet higher"

I think that YOU should take a sight level up there - then you/we would know for SURE. That would put the matter to rest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHxGUe1 ... tu.be&t=16
To double-check your work, after sighting from WM summit to WMA Peak remember to go to the WMA peak and sight back at the WM summit to verify the declination (or inclination if you are so inclined, ha).

[chumley]

NG Topo! and CalTopo have some kind of visiual indicator on their maps that show north as higher than the benchmark peak? I don't see it on the HAZ CalTopo layer?

And I appreciate summit geeks, but it's a bit of an incestuous crowd, data-wise. All of those websites generally link to each other. So if one reports something incorrectly, the others will often cite the first, even if incorrect.

*Note: I am in absolutely no way arguing that the government is not clumsy, inefficient or inaccurate in most endeavors!

[hikeaz]

NG Topo! and CalTopo have some kind of visiual indicator on their maps that show north as higher than the benchmark peak? I don't see it on the HAZ CalTopo layer?
*Note: I am in absolutely no way arguing that the government is not clumsy, inefficient or inaccurate in most endeavors!

I hope not - as I doubt Joe has the storage for all THOSE citations.

[wallyfrack]

The USGS map shows a different boundary. The north ridge is placed in the Apache National Forest.

[Tough_Boots]

The government may generally be clumsy, inefficient, or inaccurate but the USGS are scientists. Its not like Jeff Flake is running around with surveying equipment.

[Jim]

@Tough_Boots
If he did, you can bet those elevations would be inflated. Wait, wrong guy.

[Jim]

I don't want to start a new thread.

Anyone going to hike the loop soon? I'm curious about snow and trail conditions for the loop, maybe hiking as early as next weekend, but if the predicted low comes through and winds are up, June.

[chumley]

@Jim_H @Dixieflyer should be able to help.

[LindaAnn]

I am hiking it tomorrow, I’ll let you know.

[DixieFlyer]

@Jim_H
On Wednesday of this week I did an out-and-back hike on the West Baldy trail from the West Baldy TH to the upper junction with the East Baldy trail, and there was no snow on the trail...the trail was very nice for the first 5.5 miles or so, but then there was a fair amount of deadfall for about a mile(from about mile 5.5 to mile 6.5)

[LindaAnn]

@Jim_H East Baldy has some deadfall up around the spring and crash site. Maybe over the course of a mile or so. Not terrible, but enough to be mildly annoying. West Baldy was pretty bad. It was VERY windy today, and there were a lot of newly fallen trees. I personally saw several fall, and heard a whole lot more come down. I wouldn’t do West Baldy again until it’s cleared. Very little snow on the trail, pretty much just one patch of about 20’ to walk through near the summit.

[tibber]

@Jim_H East Baldy has some deadfall up around the spring and crash site. Maybe over the course of a mile or so. Not terrible, but enough to be mildly annoying. West Baldy was pretty bad. It was VERY windy today, and there were a lot of newly fallen trees. I personally saw several fall, and heard a whole lot more come down. I wouldn’t do West Baldy again until it’s cleared. Very little snow on the trail, pretty much just one patch of about 20’ to walk through near the summit.

[Jim]

I lean more toward waiting as there may be another wind event next weekend. Maybe I will hike Mt Union or Mingus, or something in the Pinals. I would be interested in a nice loop on Union, or Mingus, if there are suggestions. Preferably in the 8 to 12 mile and around 2 to 3K AEG range.

[sam_hikes]

I know deadfall can be a huge problem on Baldy and some bad years there can be 250 trees blocking the West/East Baldy loop.

I phoned the USFS Springerville and they had no reports of significant deadfall.

How much deadfall are we currently talking about on the West Baldy trail as we have plans for the following weekend? From the reports it sounds like it's only bad from mile 5.5 to 6.5 but are we talking 75 trees blocking the trail or a smaller amount? How much deadfall on the East Baldy?

Thanks so much!

Sam

[hiking_arizona]

didn't several comment that Baldy is a very bad choice when wind is an issue?

Wonder if anyone hiked it today as wind was forecasted to be an issue?

Crazy to see trees falling left and right during a hike.

Did anyone get pictures of the mess for the ranger.

[DixieFlyer]

I hiked up and down the East Baldy trail today and counted 50 downed trees over the trail...some of them were easy to get over, and it wasn't too bad overall...tomorrow I am going up east Baldy and down West Baldy, and I imagine that West Baldy will be worse