Hiking Group Size Limit & Popular Destination Control

[joebartels]

What irritates you about Large Groups?
When I started hiking I was a bit surprised to find a layer of borderline hate for fellow hikers. I recall streams of hikers in large groups in the Catalinas, [ Boulder Canyon Trail #103 ] , maybe one other. A few seriously impolite large groups ever, netting maybe 5 minutes of my life waiting.

What irritates you about Popular Destinations?
Fossil is a good example. Like or dislike the results?
I'm not thrilled about any permits but it's good to see the managing agency... managing
Is throwing blame to the invention of the automobile, books, HAZ or Social Media solving anything.

Piestewa is a city example. Rarely do I see the horror stories conveyed but I do occasionally.

When I first visited Grand Canyon I was in awe of the number of people. I bitched about it because I learned that's what cool hikers do. Really doesn't phase me. What would you expect for one of the seven natural wonders of the world?

Looking for large group solutions I found

SOLUTIONS FOR LARGE GROUPS?
Can we hike as two groups and then camp together at night? How about hiking as one group and camping a mile apart? The point of group size limits is to avoid the impacts of large groups, both on the trail and in camp. As with other wilderness regulations, weaseling around the rule ends up hurting the wilderness place we came to enjoy. So what’s the solution for those thirty girl scouts or twenty five student school groups?

• Plan ahead and prepare: Learn the size limits for the area you’d like to visit ahead of time and avoid the problem
• If you have a group that’s too large, take two separate trips from different trailheads. Smaller groups provide for a better trip all-around
• Change your trip destination to a non-wilderness area that allows larger groups

Splitting Groups into Smaller Size: The following definition will be used to determine how far apart a group
must be in order to meet the requirement stated above, if the definition is not already provided in the Forest Plan
Standards and Guides or in a Special Order:
Groups must be totally separated from the rest of the other group with no connection to the other group or
individual(s) from the other group at any time during the wilderness trip. When in the wilderness, groups must be
out-of-sight and sound of the other group at all times, or by ½- mile separation, whichever is greater. Groups must
not come together for any length of time while in the wilderness. If sight and sound or ½- mile separation is not
practicable due to topography or logistics, consider separation of groups by drainage or watershed with no groups
sharing the same drainage in the same wilderness during the requested time.

Full Disclosure - I'm trying to stir up discussion to test a new "moderated reply" forum. Obviously I'm no role model topic creator =)

[LindaAnn]

Okay, I’ll play along...

From a personal perspective, I’m not a big fan of groups, but I don’t really care if I encounter them while hiking. The biggest hassle for me is getting past them if they are clueless about moving out of the way of other hikers. They tend to be noisy, which usually destroys any chances of seeing wildlife after they’ve passed by. All minor inconveniences. Most large groups I’ve encountered were usually within a few miles of a trailhead, so in my experience, they tend to not venture too far.

I do think that social media has contributed to the overwhelming popularity of certain locations. Again, kind of annoying, but not the end of the world. Most of these locations experiencing this popularity have a couple of things in common—easy vehicle access, short hike. In my opinion, let the masses have these sites because that keeps them away from the better places they aren’t willing/able to venture to and destroy. And if some moron gets injured or worse trying to get the perfect Insta-pic, then I’m not going to have any sympathy for him or her.

[gummo]

Turn Into a gossip/bitch session
People don't see their own negativity and insecurities, but they feel them, kind of like a parasite. Our society teaches us that being you isn't good enough, so carry a lot of shame around with us (the parasite). We strive to feel better about ourselves by buying material things and doing risky behaviors and bragging about them on social media. It's never enough though. If it were, then we wouldn't have celebrities getting plastic surgeries, buying multiple automobiles, or having mental breakdowns. The easiest way to look impressive to others and hide any insecurities are to complain and put down others. If people really enjoyed life and felt in control of it, they would not complain about little things. Complaining to me is a cry for help. I'm not opposed to complaining because it does help relief stress and facilitates new ways of thinking and ideas, but it gets out of hand in large groups sometimes.

Make me feel uncomfortable
When you are a 47-year old with a roommate who is an atheist, who photographs snakes and scorpions for personal enjoyment, who eats a specialized diet, never wears a jacket, who watches WWE, and travels to Africa alone, you learn that it's easier to keep that to yourself. There are too many judgmental people.

Helps me learn about new places
It does.

[Jim]

Like craft beer, large hiking groups do not interest me. I consider it a boutique subject, hotly contested but largely of no real importance to my life. I do enjoy stimulating conversion, though.

Large groups, they do not offend or threaten me. I'm more concerned with real impacts to my person and the wilderness areas, so called or genuine. Air pollution, water quality, and having a functioning ecosystem. Slightly off topic, but which is the real threat to a so called wilderness area with Kendrick Peak being my specific example? A group of 100 happy go lucky people forming a single chain group walking while chatting up a storm as they pause from time to time to let others pass, or 120 years of human caused forest changes that culminated in the Pumpkin Fire? I don't consider that 100 person group something all that significant. Which is more significant to my health, not even considering the Wilderness: a group of 100+ HHH meetup hikers going slowly and loudly up the Siphon Draw to the Flatiron, or the brown haze that envelopes the Valley and spreads out far into the desert every November to February? I don't suffer from generalized anxiety so 500 people on the trail is little more than an eye rolling irritant, but the haze makes my chest tight, makes my eyes burns, my sinuses swell and burn, and gives me real tangible problems, problems I never had before I moved to Phoenix.

These debates over ethics and wilderness, unless specifically focused on large areas, forest management, or large scale disturbances or changes are just a form of elitists brow beating others who do not share the belief that somehow 15 people is going to ruin everything, while 14 is just fine! Yet, completely ignoring the reality that is right there, not concerned with a political designation, and impacts you everyday, and also affects the so called wilderness areas. Maybe people are trying to fight the fight that they feel they can, but they're aren't really fighting the right subject, when they do.

[Al_HikesAZ]

When I was young and new to backpacking a group called the Boy Scouts of America helped me learn skills and introduced me to special places. I would have never acquired many of the skills that formed the foundation of may outdoor skills. Now that I am older, I am not interested in joining groups. I recognize that I am still deficient in some skills, but now I have the ability to find people or small groups who can help me with climbing/rappelling or canyoneering. Boy Scouts was not the kind of group to find dates that interested me.

I will still join groups if it is the only way to do a trip. I recently went with Arizona Raft Adventures as the only way to do a 2 week rafting trip down the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon. There is no way I could have ever scored a permit or organized such a trip.

I am in support of permits and group limitations. I even support parking fees or permits for the Phoenix Mountain Preserve. I enjoy going to Maricopa County Recreation areas because the entry fees make it a quieter and more enjoyable experience.

I forget what the other questions were and my attendant is here with my mid morning pills an Ensure.

[Mountain_Rat]

I don’t hike in groups, I don’t get the concept of hiking in groups, and I avoid trails that tend to attract hiking groups, but if there were a movement to ban or regulate groups from such activities, I would be the first one there to protest any such regulation.

Look at your personal mileage for last year, then tell me if you think that any member of the average hiking group has done that much in a decade? I would be surprised if that type of hiker would break the 1,000 mile mark in a lifetime. The point is that it isn’t the number of hikers in a group, but the number of footfalls over the landscape that impacts it. By that measure, we should all be allotted only so many miles to hike in a lifetime.

The reality is that the core of this hiking community is the biggest offender when it comes to impacting our outdoor environment to the extent that hiking does. HAZ pounds the S#$% out of some acreage every day of every year. We aren’t leaving the same TH at the same time, but we’re doing more mileage on any given day than would the annual American Plumber’s Association picnic. I wouldn’t be calling your congressman just yet. Just sayin…

I could write a book on this one, but I’ll just close with this. I would much rather have 20 people glommed up on a trail, than have them sitting around a table, bitching about 20 other people whom they’ve never met and who's story they don’t know.

[rally_toad]

Have a larger impact on Flora, Fauna, and the Land- This sort of intuitively makes sense but there hasn't been a ton of research on group size and impacts on wildlife and protected areas.It would also be hard (impossible?) to sort out the specific impact of large groups vs. more intensive visitor use in general. My guess is the impact would be mainly from intensive use whether that is lots of solo hikers or a few very large groups. I picked this option, but it probably has a fairly minimal impact (again overall use is probably more important). There are more dire threats to natural resources and protected areas. I'd also wonder whether larger groups break other rules e.g. littering etc.

Have a larger impact on my experience - Like Flora, Fauna, water and Land I consider wilderness to be a resource. Yes the idea of wilderness is very eurocentric and invented, but it annoys me when I see large groups where they are prohibited. I think this might also stem from the fact that large groups often seems to mean that at least some in the group don't have great hiker etiquette (e.g. won't step aside to let me pass, pass me than immediately stop on the trail,= listen to music on speakers, etc.)

Do not interest me- I'm more of a solo hiker, partner hiker, or small group hiker. I've enjoyed my hikes with fellow HAZers. Some of those hikes have been about the maximum for a group size I'm comfortable with (8 or so). Then again, HAZ hikes often turn into a "group" of Solo hikers since no one can keep pace with Joe or Wally. Rarely on HAZ hikes is it 8 people steps apart for the entire hike.

[RedRoxx44]

I like that people are getting out and doing something. You will always have the clueless, the trash leavers, the ones there for a purpose you can't understand or appreciate. And you will have those in awe of their surroundings enough to look up from their cell phones, and feel happy and great about getting out of their cave.
People exercising their bodies is good. Nature is good for the psyche; so says science.
My preference is obvious, and I am fortunate I can go places and see no one. Since I don't encounter large groups and avoid popular trails I can't say how I would or would not feel. Probably irritated and would retreat more into my shell. I do know that some places I have returned to if I see more trash or more downed trees for firewood or more of a beaten trail the most I feel is sadness.