VV Trail Sign

[mttgilbert]

We found this trail sign while hiking in East Clear Creek:

There was an old road near it and some signs of campsites around it but it was in a fairly inaccessible location. Trail 108 is the West Fork of Oak Creek Trail, and "V V" is a ranch somewhere here in Arizona but I don't know where. This was the only sign we found in the canyon and there were no blazes to further define the trail. Any ideas?

HAZ VV Map

[nonot]

Here's an educated guess after I did a bit more sleuthing:

They are old surveyor signs, possibly for old road alignments or planning (edit) or dam surveys:

VVH (verified vertical and horizontal)
VV (verified vertical)
VH (verified horizontal)

Might be more useful than the small circular discs embedded in the ground, when it comes to placing survey marks in random places that are not peaks.


OK, chumley mentioned this on page 1 a few years back, so this is not new info .

[nonot]

Yeah, there's still a bit of a mystery in terms of what the indices refer to: watershed surveys, dam surveys, utility (electrical) surveys, roads, bike trails, etc?

Where these crop up tend to be in watersheds where dams were either proposed or actually built, so my guess is that they are either from dams or the utility runs for the power lines from the dams.

[LindaAnn]

@hikingwhit
There are a few pages of posts to read through here, but I wonder if your dad would be able to offer some insight.

[chumley]

I was looking into that earlier today. Blue Ridge Dam was built in 1963. If I were to guess, these signs are from a similar time period. I find it tough to believe that there were other options as to which canyon to build the dam or where to put the pipeline, but my gut tells me these survey markers are somehow related.

[joebartels]

same as I figured out putting up some info earlier today, need an old Phelps Dodge employee from the early 60's to decipher

[chumley]

@joebartels
that unregistered guy is pretty knowledgeable

[Sredfield]

The knowledgeable soothsayer with inside information that I consulted says:

"Pre-Attack planning for fire, supposedly where they would put dozer line.

These are from the 80’s, none of these are on [FS] GIS layers. They probably
don’t need them now since they do fire differently than they did then."

[chumley]

they do fire differently than they did then.

Yeah, now the FS just starts fires willy nilly from helicopters. ;) :STP:

[CannondaleKid]

@chumley Hmmm, starting another fire are we? ;)
I think I'll stay away from this one.

[chumley]

The most recent find introduces a new acronym: VVFC.
http://hikearizona.com/photo.php?ZIP=587258

Given previous discussion one could speculate the FC to mean Fire Control? Or perhaps Flood Control?

It's unlikely it stands for the common result for FC: Football Club.

[trekkin_gecko]

this one is on a ridge, so fire control over flood control

[Nighthiker]

I will reserve my answer, I want to take note of other postings

[Anekantavada]

Found one on Houston Brothers Trail, McFarland Spring. Number were off.

[Grasshopper]

I did not realize we had an old Forum Topic regarding these "VV Signs". Here is the HAZ Culture Label to associate these various located signs--> [ Unknown VV Triangle Marker ]

[Oregon_Hiker]

My thought is that these signs may have been related to logging and marked areas leased/sold by the Forest Service for logging.

[chumley]

@nonot posted this interesting comment on a recent photo and it seemed worth adding to this discussion thread.

I still come up blank on a search for the meaning of VV, though I suspect it is a survey company name/initials. However, I have recently discovered that the color of the sign could be a clue.

According to standards, colors represents a survey or marking for:

Yellow: Natural gas, oil, steam, petroleum, or other gaseous or flammable material
Red (which the eagle found): Electric power lines, cables, conduit, and lighting cables
Orange (some pictures show rust that could be orange): Telecommunication, alarm or signal lines, cables, or conduit

For completeness, where I don't think we have any of these colors on file:
Green Sewers and drain lines
Blue Drinking water
Purple Reclaimed water, irrigation, and slurry lines
Pink Temporary survey markings, unknown/unidentified facilities
White Proposed excavation limits or route

[wallyfrack]

That same color coding is used for underground lines

[chumley]

@wallyfrack Is that universal or only in countries that spell “colour” the way the Queen demands?

[wallyfrack]

@chumley - It's universal I just grabbed the 1st chart.