?uestions about Black Mountian.

[Turkish]

Recently I spoke to a co-worker about hiking in the Phoenix area. He told me about a great hike in the Cavecreek / Carefree area called Black Mountain. Using my trusty Phoenix Metro Area map I found the area he was referring to and I also found the Black Mountain that he spoke of. However when I mentioned it to a co-worker who lives in the area he said that the general public couldn`t use the trail because parts of it were on private property. So my questions are: 1) does anyone have any info on hiking Black Mountain, 2) is it open to the general public, 3) how do I get to it & what about parking? Any information would be helpful to this newbie!!!



PS. Has anyone hiked this trail???

[Nighthiker]

Do a night hike recon.

[mttgilbert]

You can check with the BLM to see who, if anyone owns it then ask their permission. or you can night-hike it...

[Daryl]

I had heard that the trail is surrounded by private property, thus you can't get to it unless you can fly. The trail it self is still public land open to use by anyone but now limited only to the homeowners there.
This makes me think of two things that make me say DUH!:
1. as a city, why annex land around a hiking area so people can no longer use it?
2. if you buy land bordering a hiking trail, you should expect people to still use the hiking trail.

[mttgilbert]

In response to Daryl's reply:

It's the same problem we're starting to see in the Superstitions. It's supposed to be up to the BLM to purchase easments to the public lands open. It might help to write a letter to your local BLM office.

[Larry Bolton]

Interesting timing. There is an article in today’s AZ Republic (Oct. 8, 2003)by Laurie Roberts (sec. B, page 2) that covers this issue. She nails Cave Creek and Carefree city planners when she asks how they plan to allow hiking if there is no access to the existing trail and there pledge to build no new trails. Looks like the rich get richer (and all the perks). This is similar to issues in Sedonna. To be fair, there are many Bozos out there with no regard for nature and neighbors. LNT!!

[Leva]

Several years ago, I was looking to buy some land, build a house, and live rural. One of the places I looked was in Sunflower ... and the developer bragged about the good hiking in the area. I asked about trails in the area. (I knew what the trails were, I was just feeling him out.)

He indicated that there were several in the area -- and then indicated in the same breath that they planned to make it a gated community and cut off vehicular access to all but residents. "But the residents will be able to use the trails."

I said a rude word.

Incidently, the Arizona Trail goes through Sycamore Canyon right there. I do not know if he managed to cut off access, but he indicated he wanted to, to make it "exclusive and private and residents only!"

Leva
(I did not buy in there not only because of the developer's attitude but also because he was charging over $100K an acre for land 45 minutes from the nearest convenience, on a flood plain, and with a water table that was about 4 foot. But there was running surface water and it was "exclusive" so it appears that he actually was able to sell the land for that price, judging by the number of houses that have appeared up there.)

[Nighthiker]

I was going to buy apx. three and a third acre for $ 9k in 1978 but I backed out because the proposed AZ 87 realignment was to go west of Sunflower, instead it went east.

[Wiz]

In response to Daryl's reply:

It's the same problem we're starting to see in the Superstitions. It's supposed to be up to the BLM to purchase easments to the public lands open. It might help to write a letter to your local BLM office.

Dream on. BLM wants to close the Superstitions to the public. Anyone remember what they and G&F tried to do to Charlebois spring a year or so ago?

[Nighthiker]

The Superstitions is managed by the Tonto National Forest.

[Wiz]

Yup, that's the story.

Here's a quote from a source on another site that I consider extremely authoritative:
"Their (Forest Service) reason for having the Fish and Game presence in the wilderness is because they have declared this area a riparian area ,and they transported a breed of Arizona pup fish that is supposedly endangered and placed at the springs. Now the Fish and Game has jurisdiction in a Federal wilderness, because they have protected wildlife there."
I'm not going to name the source, but anyone who has been to Charlebois can verify what they say.

[JJ]

I have hiked Black Mountain on a regular basis and know many details. Want to know more contact me

[JJ]

I never use the correct sstuff. Pain in the butt. Regards JJ

[bryanmertz]

Is this hike on HAZ? I did this on Sunday and can't find it to post on my log.

FYI. There is room for a couple cars on the road in, and we didn't have any problem walking up the road and too the TH. There is some new development and this may change, but it's still pretty easily accessible.

Bryan

[joebartels]

Hey Brian,

If you have details on how to access the hike I'll create a page. Just log a generic triplog and I'll transfer it.

I've received many inquiries on this over the years so I know people are interested.

[bryanmertz]

Hey Joe - It's basically Cave Creek road and School House road (it's a 4-way stop.)

There is room for a couple cars on School House at the wash crossing. You just take the road up until it ends and you find a trail. I don't have any of the distance or elevation though.

Bryan

[joebartels]

Thanks Bryan, it's up!

Interesting...
Black Mountain News from 1963

Articles About Scenic Drive Beginnings

March 8, 1963. Cave Creek Improvement Association Meeting

"A resolution was adopted by the Cave Creek Improvement Association at their Thursday meeting, petitioning the County Board of Supervisors to take necessary action to preserve the scenic right-of-way along Cave Creek and Scottsdale Roads.

Curt Cockburn, chairman of the Zoning Committee, presented correspondence with County officials recommending a 75 to 100 foot right-of-way from the center line. Corky Cockburn was appointed temporary chairman of a group to initiate action on the resolution.

The zoning if successful, would extend from the 11 mile cattle guard on Cave Creek Road to Scottsdale Road, and south of the cattle guard north of Curry's Corner (ed. the intersection of Pinnacle Peak Road and Scottsdale Road)."

August 23, 1963. Shoot for Scenic Drive

"Members of the Cave Creek Improvement Association, at a meeting Monday, August 12, voted to proceed with a study preliminary to establishing scenic rights-of-way along Cave Creek and Scottsdale Roads.

Don Hutton, member of the Maricopa County and Planning and Zoning Commission, and John Stanzel, an assistant, presented a report requested earlier by the Association to determine whether such a scenic highway was feasible, and what would be the maximum width that could be reasonably established.

Mr. Hutton emphasized that such action did not involve condemning land.

The motion sent to the County Commission by the 52 members present requested "the establishment of set back lines adequate to accommodate 210 feet future right-of-way plus the required building setbacks required under zoning regulations on (1) Cave Creek Road from the eleven mile cattle guard north of the south boundary of the village of Cave Creek, and (2) on Scottsdale Road from a point approximately one mile north of Curry's Corners north to the south boundary of Carefree."

People who live in Cave Creek and Carefree are well aware of the increasing heavy flow of traffic through the two communities. Much of it continues north to Bartlett or Horseshoe Dams and Seven Springs. It is probable to suppose that the Cave Creek - Camp Creek Road will one day be paved through to Bloody Basin.

Vince Thelander, chairman of the Association's Road Committee, states that the aim of the Cave Creek-Carefree group is to preserve and enhance the a section of ""living desert"" that is particularly endowed with a variety of native Arizona flora.

K.T. Palmer emphasized the increase in property value along such a scenic route, and said that deed restrictions in Carefree provide 270 feet between house fronts and along Scottsdale Road.

Fred Griffin, Association President, led the group in a vote of sincere thanks to Mr. Hutton and his department for the many hours of work on the study, and the excellent maps and report.""

October 18, 1963. Scenic Highway

A great deal of the charm of Cave Creek is the long leisurely drive through the desert. After rushed hours in Phoenix, who doesn't sit back and relax along about the 11 mile cattleguard, kick off the shoes or loosen the girdle. Scottsdale Rd. has the same effect. The wonder and delight of finding such a beautiful area at the end of a lovely drive brings us many Sunday Drivers back time and again -- and is probably why most of us are here now.

To the right the small map shows the approximate locations of some of the newer sub-divisions around Cave Creek-Carefree. A glance will show Cave Creek Rd. is a natural route from Phoenix to most of these developments. Not too many years will go by before both Cave Creek and Scottsdale Rds. will be heavily traveled.

At a hearing Nov. 7th, the Board of Supervisors will study plans for a county ordinance to allow setbacks 210 ft. along portions of Cave Creek and Scottsdale Rds.

Dollar and cents wise, Cave Creek-Carefree businessmen cannot afford NOT to support this ordinance and all it entails. Money is made in proportion to the number of winter visitors the Sunday Drivers that pass the shops. Let the roads get congested, let houses and shops border the highways as in Cactus and THUD! there goes our tourist money. We have many miles of commercial frontage just in Cave Creek. It takes a lot of water dogs, postcards and coffee to support these.

The beauty of the roadsides should not be destroyed but civilization left to itself does destroy beauty. So much for why we should support the setback ordinance.

There is one sticky area along Cave Creek Rd. just south of Carefree Hwy. intersection. Nine small lots, 330' X 330' are cut diagonally by the road. The proposed setback will cut very severely into the useable area of several of these lots. Some special consideration will have to be given to this short section of road.

This problem illustrates perfectly why this proposal must be acted on NOW before any large areas along the road are subdivided.

All other road frontage are in large lots so the additional setback will not materially affect the property. It is obvious that as soon as appreciable water is drilled south of Black Mountain, the area will open for development and large acreage will be sub-divided.

Any rules and regulations must be established now before it becomes a hardship for a great many small property owners.

People in Cave Creek should remember that as travel increases, drivers can easily bypass Cave Creek Rd. and the village by using Bell and Scottsdale.

If it is worth having an extra-special road, it is worth fighting for. A letter to Barney Burns, Chairman of the Board of Supervisors and our representative, presenting your views would be appreciated."

November 15, 1963. Setbacks Approved by Commission

The Maricopa County and Planning & Zoning Department, at a meeting Nov. 8th, voted to forward to the Board of Supervisors their study of a setback ordinance involving Cave Creek and Scottsdale Roads. This forward step in the orderly development of the Cave Creek area receives the support of several representative citizens, and was unopposed.

At the Thursday meeting, Director Don Hutton covered the course of action which has been taken on the proposed setback amendment providing for 105 feet from either side of the center line. Mr. Hutton explained that wide road setbacks to provide for scenic highways is not new in Arizona, and cited the example of the well known Pinal-Pioneer Highway near Tucson.

Speaking for the measure were Dean Barber, Fred Griffin, Bill Metcalfe of Cave Creek. T. Palmer, Les Rhuart and Tom Darlington of Carefree, and Orian Steen, Jr., Scottsdale. Mr. Steen presented a petition signed by 12 property owners along Scottsdale Road supporting the measure and requested any help the county could give toward preserving natural desert beauty. Ten other citizens attended the hearing in support of the measure.

The proposed amendment to Article IX - Arterial Setbacks, forwarded to the Supervisors reads:

D. CAVE CREEK ROAD: One hundred and five feet (105) from the centerline of Cave Creek Rd; from the NW corner of the SW ¼, Section 14, T4N, R3E; to Section 33, T6N, R4E.

E. SCOTTSDALE ROAD: One hundred and five feet (105) from the centerline of Scottsdale Road from the NE corner, Section 10, T4N, R4E; to Section 3, T5N, R4E.

The motion was was made by Vincent Thelander, member of the CCIA committee on roads, who has spent many hours of work toward success of this measure."

July 10, 1964. SCENIC DRIVE GETS GO AHEAD

"The 19 mile Desert Scenic Drive receives go ahead when plans were approved by the County Board of Supervisors last week.

Vince Thelander, Chairman of the Cave Creek Improvement Assn. Roads Committee, announced the plans submitted call for roadside parks, historical markers and signs identifying various desert growth and outstanding landmarks.

The 19 mile Desert Scenic Drive will extend from a point north of the Eleven Mile Cattleguard on Cave Creek Rd. through Cave Creek, Carefree and south to Scottsdale Rd. to just below Jomax Road.

For a year the CCIA Road Committee, Vince Thelander, Fred Griffin and Les Rhuart, have worked on the Scenic Drive possibility. The first step was taken last spring when the County Board of Supervisors were asked to pass an amendment to the setback ordinance along portions of these roads so that no building could be placed within 105 feet of the centerline. At the present, there are no buildings along the route, except in the two villages of Cave Creek and Carefree. The committee request was prompted by a desire to ""preserve one of the few remaining true desert regions along major roadways leading out of the Phoenix metropolitan area.""

In December, the Supervisors adopted the setback amendment and the CCIA committee was able to go ahead with the plans. In the past weeks, meetings with the Federal Land Management Depts., and County Parks Commission have worked out plans for leasing of 2 five acre sites for future development as roadside parks at the entrances to the drive. It is hopeful that additional turnoffs at special viewpoints can be acquired. The Highway Dept. is cooperating in planning placement of the identifying signs along the roadway.

Joseph C. Herrick, County Mgr., in a letter to the Improvement Assn. Committee, said, ""The Board appreciates greatly the efforts of such civic-minded groups as your Improvement Assn., and the work you are doing to beautify our community."" The committee members are Vince Thelander, Chairman, Leslie Rhuart, Carefree and Fred Griffin, Cave Creek. Work on the signs have started and it is hoped that when the call goes out for volunteers to help paint and set them in place, the workers in the village will respond to the call.

Scenic drives are not new in Arizona. The best example is the Pinal Pioneer Highway near Tucson. Not only is the desert remaining a wonderful showplace for pacifying motorists but land values have increased greatly.

Love of our unique desert beauty is a common tie to those who live in Cave Creek and Carefree. Others are attracted to this same beauty and it is inevitable that "civilization" will encroach upon and destroy some of that charm. By giving increasing importance to the preservation of our native growth, it is hoped that visitors will enjoy -- and treat with respect -- our desert."

December 4, 1964. DESERT FOOTHILLS SCENIC DRIVE

"Work is progressing on the signs for the Desert Foothills Scenic Drive. At the time of this writing, the large ""Entering the Desert Foothills Drive"" signs are about ready to be installed.

Every SATURDAY MORNING IS WORK-DAY! You are urged to support this project and come each Saturday to work on the signs. Workers are still requested to come help paint and prepare the signs. Work is done at the Cave Creek Building Supply on Saturday mornings, starting at 8:30 AM."

December 11, 1964. DESERT FOOTHILLS SCENIC DRIVE

"One big final effort may finish work on the signs for the Desert Foothills Scenic Drive. This final workday is called for December 19, 9 A.M. at the Cave Creek Building Supply. Coffee and cookies will be served to help with the morale problem and keep circulation going if it happens to be a cold day.

All adults and teens are encouraged to come and lend a hand. This is a huge project but a very worthwhile one. It is time it was finished so the Drive can become a reality.

The Desert Foothills Scenic Drive is the result of years of planning and effort of the Cave Creek Improvement Association. Vince Thelander is Chairman for the Committee aided by Les Rhuart and Fred Griffin."

North of the mountain(not on the mountain) there's an Annual Luminaria Run
http://www.luminariarun.com/racedet.htm

That just reminded me back in the late 80's my dad & sister bugged me to go hike Squaw Peak on x-mas eve? as it was a big luminaria event. I recall saying "are you guys nuts, who hikes in the desert"