Red Rock Pass - neccessary evil?

[te_wa]

this is what I wrote to a friend in a PM and Im awaiting a response... just in case, does anyone know the exact intricacies of this dreaded Red Rock Pass?
regarding the Dogie Trail to Taylor Cabin in Sycamore canyon Wilderness:

"im using the Coconino Natl Forest map as printed by the US forest service, official liturature.
The only thing I can assume by the Red Rock pass is that 'they' assume that if you park a vehicle that you are going to enter the Red Rock wilderness* (by foot or horse)
this trail goes nowhere near their boundary even if they (red rock rangers) are responsible for upkeep of the road, trailhead, and any amenities found therein. (dont know about what if any amenities are there)

it is also my understanding that you dont need a Red Rock pass for entering the wilderness on foot or by horseback. since no road either paved or gravel enters that wilderness (unless a rancher's right of way) then a) the entire red rock pass is illegal and it states so right on the pass!
b) so what difference is there if I park 17 miles outside of the wilderness and then walk into it, or I park 17 inches off the wilderness and then walk into it?
I would take any dissagreement with this logic to court. it would probably be dismissed with a simple written letter to the court proper.

do you agree with any of this?"

[Vaporman]

I'm pretty sure you don't need one in the Sycamore Wilderness.

[big_load]

The last time I hiked there, the Red Rock Pass didn't exist. The only person who challenged my right to the trail was (seriously) wearing an aluminum foil hat.

[te_wa]

this is what the Red Rock page says regarding the necessity of the "pass"

"A Red Rock Pass (or Golden Eagle, Golden Age or Golden Access) is required when recreating on National Forest land in Red Rock Country, a high-impact recreation area. The pass must be displayed in the windshield of the vehicle.

Vehicles parked on the National Forest in the red rock area* that do not display a valid pass in the windshield are subject to receiving a citation.

A pass is not required for incidental stopping to take a photograph or to enjoy a scenic vista (approximately 15 minutes or less)."

so what do they mean by the "red rock area"?? Munds Mountain Wilderness is certainly under this "area" and so is Sycamore Canyon and Wet Beaver Creek, for instance the Bell trail among others. No pass is needed there right?
I dont understand why they do not offer a map of this "area" and its a very strange shade of gray when they describe what "recreation" is and where the "area" is located. Do you think they mean "wilderness area"?

[nonot]

There is a map of the area available to pickup from a red rock ranger station, the boundary is listed in red/green on the one I have.

The Dogie TH is in the Red Rock fee area as is the southern Casner Mountain TH.
The Taylor Cabin and Winter Cabin TH's are not, nor is the northern TH of Loy Canyon Trail
The Mooney trail is in the fee area and is the furthest west trail that crosses into (and out of) the no camping/no campfires area.

Only portions of the Munds Wilderness are in the fee area.

Hope this helps

[rushthezeppelin]

I think our best option would be to just give a call to the range station there. They would obviously know for sure if we need the pass for this area as they are the ones that enforce them. BTW how much is the Red Rock pass?

[Hoffmaster]

A Red Rock Pass is $5 a day, or $15 a year. Since you'll need to pay for two days (according to nonot's info above) I'd spring for the year pass.

[chumley]

I'd like to say that you don't have to pay. Your points all seem quite valid and its not like that's an area that most would consider terribly "high-impact".

However ... the maps show the boundaries of the Red Rock Pass fee area quite clearly, and I'm having a difficult time figuring out how you would argue that parking your vehicle at that trailhead would not require you to pay the fee. It is unmistakably within the boundaries, no?

[te_wa]

it looks like the area is indeed within the green boundary so I have devised a plan: just south of the boundary is a jeep road that goes to sycamore tank #2. Score one for the HAZ "no-fee coalition"

this also leads me to beg the question... does the Prescott Natl Forest sell the Red Rock Pass?
it seems they would have to since the "area" put under these requirements is stretched over into their territory.

[rushthezeppelin]

it looks like the area is indeed within the green boundary so I have devised a plan: just south of the boundary is a jeep road that goes to sycamore tank #2. Score one for the HAZ "no-fee coalition"

this also leads me to beg the question... does the Prescott Natl Forest sell the Red Rock Pass?
it seems they would have to since the "area" put under these requirements is stretched over into their territory.

How many miles would this alternative tack onto the trip?

[te_wa]

uhh, looks like ~1/4 to 3/8 mile each way. not really a big deal to pay (now $20) a year, or $5 a day, but its the principle dammit!
this is our land

[rushthezeppelin]

If it's just a pass for the car itself and not for each person that comes on I have no problem grabbing the year round pass. I will need it anywho since I'm planning on doing some Red Rock Wilderness stuff soon too. Also does anybody happen to know the condition of the road leading to the trailhead. I know the write-up says it's in good shape but I think it was done in 2005. If nobody knows I'm sure I can just call the ranger station on that one.

[joebartels]

It's pretty good until the last mile or so. Then it's dependant on the recent rains and grading. You'd be better off asking a random stranger in Tempe than the FS. Any pickup can make it. Nonots low rider probably would not. I made it in a Ford Escort about twelve years ago, it's probably changed

[Sun_Ray]

I got tired of trying to figure out if I needed a pass for the area I was going to hike in or where I was going to stop and get the pass so I just buy the annual pass. I like to think the money us being used wisely.

[te_wa]

If it's just a pass for the car itself and not for each person that comes on I have no problem grabbing the year round pass. I will need it anywho since I'm planning on doing some Red Rock Wilderness stuff soon too. Also does anybody happen to know the condition of the road leading to the trailhead. I know the write-up says it's in good shape but I think it was done in 2005. If nobody knows I'm sure I can just call the ranger station on that one.

cool. then we can drive to the top of Cathedral Rock! (do you think they will get mad? )

if you pick up the pass then Im more willing to spend more time in the area. Id like to show you some cool areas, like upper W. Fork and Secret Canyon

[rushthezeppelin]

In response to te-wa:

Ya, I've been interested in checking out the Secret Canyon area too. Look like lots of really cool areas in the vicinity of Sedona for sure.

[nonot]

I could make it, it's just a matter of whether I want to KEEP the oilpan or not. Then there's the issue of the whole return trip.

[rushthezeppelin]

I guess my little Rio is out of the question then for making it to the trailhead. I'm sure Mike won't mind taking his vehicle then : P (don't worry I'll pitch in for gas)

[azdesertfather]

I admit I almost never hike in and around Sedona, just not a convenient place for me to get to. But I had no idea such a huge area around Sedona and Oak Creek were fee-driven. Has anyone ever been ticketed for not having a pass in any of these areas??

[big_load]

I had no idea such a huge area around Sedona and Oak Creek were fee-driven

I wonder what fraction of the take goes to fee collection and enforcement costs.