Off Trail Gems: Let Everyone Know?

[imike]

In and around the Tucson area I know of numerous great hiking routes that are not documented in the popular literature, nor anywhere on this site. It would seem that the very purpose of the HikeArizona site is to share and advertise all the great hiking potentials out there... but, is it always a good thing to make known to everyone all the potentials, or should there be a sense of discovery and adventure left open to the new hikers coming along? I know that as I discovered certain hikes just this last year, I was thinking about how I wished I'd been aware of them years earlier... and I would have enjoyed finding them in some of the literature. Then again, I appreciated never running into anyone up on them... and once they become known, they could and probably would get far greater use.

There are many issues to be considered here... and I was wondering what everyone has to say on the topic. It probably applies to all areas. Oddly enough, 30 years ago this same issue came up out West in regards to great kayak runs. The general feeling then was that the research, discovery and exploration should be allowed to each individual... otherwise they did not deserve to enjoy the route.

thoughts?

[PaleoRob]

My thoughts in general on the matter are that if the hike/destination is listed on an official map, talked about in at least two guide books, or promoted by the land management agency, then it is open game to tell others about since the information is already out there, but maybe not as well known as some other routes/places. Otherwise it is a case-by-case basis depending on who is interested in the place, or just a description in generalities. Por exemplo; http://hikearizona.com/decoder.php?ZTN=1483 Chinle Wash through Comb Ridge. It is talked about in both Sandstone Spine and House of Rain (not exactly guidebooks), and tours are run into it from the river by various companies. So it isn't unknown, but at the same time there is a lot that is rarely seen by non Navajos. So while directions are provided for getting in and getting out, there's nothing too specific about locations for ruins, rock art, etc. That is for discovery for those that bother to get out there.

[Jeffshadows]

I hate to be the voice of contention, but...they are known. I can guarantee you that anything around here in Tucson has seen use, will see use, and is not a secret. There are more than a half-dozen very large local hiking organizations, one of which notably boasts the "godfather" of southern AZ hiking as its honorary "Senior Guide." Anytime I encounter literature from these groups I'm astonished by some of the places around here they go that I either never thought of or just never made it to. Last year I headed out to explore a spot on the map out in the middle of nowhere behind the Catalinas just because the name of the canyon sounded interesting. There was no trail, etc; and the road was rough getting in. To my surprise, I ran into a group coming out that claimed it was one of their "hold-backs" that they never tell anyone about. To your point about some of these routes not being described here on HAZ: Many of the well-known and established trails in Tucson are not formally described, either.

As to sharing: This is a question as old as time, really. My feeling is that trying to hide hikes or natural splendor from others is an exercise in futility. I even get a little angry when people post on blogs (or wherever) about going to this "awesome archaeological site" or "neat old ruin" and then put some presumptuous, pious statement like: "I cannot reveal its location out of fear that the unwashed masses will destroy it" in there.

Anyway, just my $0.02...

[imike]

In response to Jeff MacE:
So, is that a yes, let everyone know... or, no let them find it naturally or by word of mouth from those who are already enjoying the hike?

[imike]

In response to PageRob:
That is a vote for not publishing routes not yet in the local literature... but leave it for discovery?

[te_wa]

I even get a little angry when people post on blogs (or wherever) about going to this "awesome archaeological site" or "neat old ruin" and then put some presumptuous, pious statement like: "I cannot reveal its location out of fear that the unwashed masses will destroy it" in there.

unless you buy my new book, which describes the hike in lucid detail... only $24.99 limited time offer

sound like a guy with hikes called "secret place #" blah blah blah?? Joe?

[joebartels]

don't get me started, I've been trying real hard to keep my rant cap off!

What a bunch of friggen crappola!

A true secret is known by nobody but the beholder. Do the right thing. Share a little or I guarantee your secret will be another man's income in due time. If you can't do that, then shut your trap. Bare in mind this is very difficult for the weak minded as true joy becomes diluted with greed.

[big_load]

I'd tell you about some of my more interesting routes, but I couldn't recreate them if I tried. That's a shame, because I left the gold there until I could come back with enough guys to carry it out.

[RedRoxx44]

I agree mostly with PageRob on this one. If it's out there then it's not really a secret except maybe in some circles where access to the information is restricted somehow. However, I occasionally get emails about a pic or on some of my hikes where I am vaque as to actual location for more specific directions. Sometimes the destination was revealed to me by someone else who is not keen on having lots of visitors in his or her backyard. Yet I got there, and someone else doing research or making certain acquaintances could get there too. So I will write about it and put up photos but in some sort of indirect way to try ad keep that contact happy.
I feel no obligation to hold someone's hand to every place I go. I made some effort to get there ( usually long driving) and they can too. I feel no desire to go to everyplace I see or read or look at pics on here. I enjoy them and enjoy the fact someone went to the time and effort to write about and photograph their experience. Discovery is everywhere. Your own backyard, so to speak, for the new hiker, or a different time of year for an old favorite.
As for archeao, just read a few posts, and see what you think. I just don't feel I need to reveal all the areas I go to, because like caves, not everyone who reads these things has the best of motives in mind. I don't care if someone gets offended by that, I just care that my words or photos aren't the ones who led to a 700 year old roof to cave in, or a fire ring built in a room, or graffiti on walls or broken formations, or mud or a pristine white flow stone curtain. I can't control anyone else's actions, but can can try to control my own.

[PaleoRob]

More isn't always better:
http://hikearizona.com/x.php?x=40176
Yes, eventually left alone the roof would have collapsed on its own, but it certainly would have lasted longer if people hadn't been walking on it.

In response to PageRob:
That is a vote for not publishing routes not yet in the local literature... but leave it for discovery?

Not necessarily. There are dozens and dozens of trails up on the Kaibab that aren't in any guidebooks, but some are marked on maps of the area, and the Forest Service promotes their trails in their office in Fredonia. So why not tell others in a larger than Fredonia audience about those routes? No reason I can think of. I haven't posted descriptions/photos only since I haven't done most of the trails up there myself.

Take for an example of the other; a place called Bare Ladder Ruin. It is not on any maps of the area and the land management agency in charge of it tries to discourage people from going to it with signs saying the trail is closed and won't tell you anything about it...unless you ask them specifically about where it is. I take my cue from them - if they don't want too many people visiting to keep the impact down, then so be it, they know more about it than I do. So will I share pictures? Yeah. Will I tell someone how to get there? If I know them, yeah. Will I write up a trail description? Nope, since the agency in charge would not appreciate it and it goes against their management policy of limiting visitation.

[Sredfield]

Everyone should keep all those little-known gems to themselves, and me, so I can keep the secret safe. ;)

[Jeffshadows]

I even get a little angry when people post on blogs (or wherever) about going to this "awesome archaeological site" or "neat old ruin" and then put some presumptuous, pious statement like: "I cannot reveal its location out of fear that the unwashed masses will destroy it" in there.

unless you buy my new book, which describes the hike in lucid detail... only $24.99 limited time offer

sound like a guy with hikes called "secret place #" blah blah blah?? Joe?

Right, that's even worse!! What's more, it's *rampant*!!

[hippiepunkpirate]

As to sharing: This is a question as old as time, really. My feeling is that trying to hide hikes or natural splendor from others is an exercise in futility. I even get a little angry when people post on blogs (or wherever) about going to this "awesome archaeological site" or "neat old ruin" and then put some presumptuous, pious statement like: "I cannot reveal its location out of fear that the unwashed masses will destroy it" in there.

I know this about off trail areas, but MacE's comment sparked a rant: A co-worker of my Dad has been in Flag for a couple years, and he likes to brag about a "secret trail" he knows about up in the Dry Lake Hills. He'll brag about the elk he saw and how he is the only one who knows about it. Then he will say "Don't ask me about that secret trail, I can't tell you where it is!" That's the sort of attitude I can't stand! If it's a trail, somebody else was there before you to blaze it! Besides...all of us Flagstaff locals know all about the Dry Lake Hills and all the unmarked trails that are everywhere. Go there at 3:00 on a Saturday afternoon and twelve mountain bikers will probably ride through!

[Jeffshadows]

As to sharing: This is a question as old as time, really. My feeling is that trying to hide hikes or natural splendor from others is an exercise in futility. I even get a little angry when people post on blogs (or wherever) about going to this "awesome archaeological site" or "neat old ruin" and then put some presumptuous, pious statement like: "I cannot reveal its location out of fear that the unwashed masses will destroy it" in there.

I know this about off trail areas, but MacE's comment sparked a rant: A co-worker of my Dad has been in Flag for a couple years, and he likes to brag about a "secret trail" he knows about up in the Dry Lake Hills. He'll brag about the elk he saw and how he is the only one who knows about it. Then he will say "Don't ask me about that secret trail, I can't tell you where it is!" That's the sort of attitude I can't stand! If it's a trail, somebody else was there before you to blaze it! Besides...all of us Flagstaff locals know all about the Dry Lake Hills and all the unmarked trails that are everywhere. Go there at 3:00 on a Saturday afternoon and twelve mountain bikers will probably ride through!

Exactly!

[chumley]

One of the problems with the interwebs (including this site) is that it makes information very easily accessible to the laziest of society. I love the availability of information, but I think that frequently, some of the "unknown" trails, historic sites, caves, etc. are then "found" and visited by people who don't have the same respect for them as the people who work harder to find them.

The people who personally explore, buy books, maps, and other resources as research for their personal hobby are more likely to respect and take care of those gems than somebody who does a google search before packing up the pickup with a few cases of beer and a dozen friends.

The usefulness of a community of like-minded people sharing their experiences is an excellent resource for others with similar interests, and one that is very valuable indeed. Unfortunately, the downside is that those experiences get shared with EVERYBODY, not just the people with similar interests.

For that reason, my personal preference is to leave only vague references to the hidden gems in the public domain. The true fans will figure it out, the others won't.

[Jeffshadows]

One of the problems with the interwebs (including this site) is that it makes information very easily accessible to the laziest of society. I love the availability of information, but I think that frequently, some of the "unknown" trails, historic sites, caves, etc. are then "found" and visited by people who don't have the same respect for them as the people who work harder to find them.

The people who personally explore, buy books, maps, and other resources as research for their personal hobby are more likely to respect and take care of those gems than somebody who does a google search before packing up the pickup with a few cases of beer and a dozen friends.

The usefulness of a community of like-minded people sharing their experiences is an excellent resource for others with similar interests, and one that is very valuable indeed. Unfortunately, the downside is that those experiences get shared with EVERYBODY, not just the people with similar interests.

For that reason, my personal preference is to leave only vague references to the hidden gems in the public domain. The true fans will figure it out, the others won't.

We will have to agree to disagree, then. ;)

[chumley]

We will have to agree to disagree, then. ;)

With full respect! I definitely see both sides. I'm just one of those people who thinks the adventure of discovery is half the fun.

[Grasshopper]

The adventure of discovery and those willing to share it is just one of the reasons why HAZ is such a great resource. I definitely fall on the side of enjoying "sharing the wealth"..

[chumley]

I'm all for sharing the wealth. And I do and will with virtually all places I've been. But there's a spot or two I've been that I don't feel I should publish the GPS coordinates for in a public forum either. For those, you can PM me anytime and I'll tell you anything you want to know. You won't ever hear me say "I can't tell you where..."

Perhaps it's my own personal fight against the sense of entitlement people have. Or I'm just a jerk. Who knows?

[imike]

Well... I got an interesting variety of perspectives... all valuable. It helps. Really, in this information age it is an issue of time... given enough in passing, what we imagine to be all our special spots will become too well documented and info available, for better or worse. If not this year, or next, then in ten or fifty... so, the valid issue is what we hope to experience for ourselves and our immediate generations.

thanks everyone...

mj