New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

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SpiderLegs
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New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by SpiderLegs » Aug 22 2014 8:31 am

New $175 Permit + $300K Insurance: Rim-to-Rim and Extended Day Hike/Run

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Who is required to obtain a permit: Any organized, non-commercial, group conducting rim-to-rim and extended day hiking and running, including rim-to-river-to-rim, and rim-to-rim-to-rim that are operating in the inner canyon. The inner canyon is defined as the area below the Tonto Platform (Tipoff and Indian Garden) from the South Rim and below Manzanita Resthouse (Pumphouse Residence) from the North Rim.

Groups including, non-profits, schools, church groups, scouts, clubs, and other similar organizations will be required to obtain an SUP for their activity. Any group, regardless of size, which has advertised to the general public, required individuals to sign up prior to participation, or that has an organizer who has been compensated for their services (including subsidized participation in the activity), are required to operate under an SUP.

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Jim_H
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by Jim_H » Aug 22 2014 8:41 am

“Right now, there are up to 800 people in the inner canyon on a given day, which is a lot for the limited facilities there,” she says. “Some of it is general crowding at sites like Phantom Ranch, or the restrooms. But some of it is an increase in litter, including human waste on the trail.”
Well, I guess the mules will start to wear diapers, and have urine collection bags, too, since the worst of the animal waste comes not from humans, but the stock.
Nothing more enjoyable than a good hike out of town.

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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by chumley » Aug 22 2014 8:57 am

This has been in the works for quite some time. It will include new backcountry/wilderness use rules (see discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6176&p=70738), will address the increased use of BA/SK/NK for both R2R hikes and general day hikes ... possibly restricting the number of day hikers who are permitted to even step foot on BA/SK due to the heavy traffic at the top of these trails (corridor trails are not considered backcountry/wilderness).

It will also re-visit the rafting guidelines. Right now there is some disagreement between rafting and pack-rafting communities because the permitting processes are vastly different. There is a temporary fix on the books, but that will be added to the plan too.

And they are always working on the mule rules Jim (as you know): viewtopic.php?f=60&t=4145&p=69368 and viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5809&p=71282

Directly from the mule's mouth:
Backcountry Plan: http://www.nps.gov/grca/parkmgmt/bmp.htm
General Management Plan: http://www.nps.gov/grca/parkmgmt/gmp.htm

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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by Jim_H » Aug 22 2014 9:03 am

Well, I haven't been there since 2011, and while I want to return someday and hate to see it like Mount Whitney where you basically have to plan months or years in advance, I can understand why. I don't appreciate the desire to trail run an R3, but I always enjoyed my hikes to Phantom to hang out, soak in Bright Angel Creek, and then hike out. I considered it a fun and pretty easy to challenging day hike. Too bad if I can't do it again.
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by hikeaz » Aug 25 2014 10:29 am

Somewhat affiliated with the 'Speed hiking through nature' topic...

Personally, I see no reason to rush through beautiful surroundings. But Lord knows that more gub'ment regulations are always bad.
I have spent time at Phantom many times on the last W/E the North Rim is open (Mid-October) - and witnessed the hundreds of 'R@R-ers' blasting through the Canyon on their 'quest'. Power Bar wrappers, Gu packets and all sorts of other garbage litter the trail - if lucky they stash the trash at the PR trash cans in the canteen (which is for food purchased there - as it goes out by mule). It is as if they think this is a sanctioned race where there are volunteers to clean up after them. And let's not talk about the rest room (over) usage on a system not designed or intended for this daily volume ... or the downhill runners expecting (demanding) the right-of-way (a big no-no - especially in the Canyon).
I'm uncertain of the mentality? - but it's as if some are 'using' the Canyon as their personal course - just another check-mark off the list - with no respect for the place.
Obviously this is not all of the R2R-ers but as has come to be the case with regulations - 'The sins of the few cause punishment of the the many"
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by joebartels » Aug 25 2014 12:03 pm

May 2013
cactuscat wrote:Ranger Elyssa brought up some interesting points about this type of activity during a chat before the condor talk at IG ... though she was talking about the relatively normal R2R2R.
She said that so many people are now trying to run the R2R2R, and hiking through the night that restrictions may be put into place ... the hordes of night hiker/runners are disturbing the peace of campers in the corridor campgrounds, and sometimes causing the toilets at Phantom to reach capacity by 5a.m. because 500 people have already passed through.
hikeaz wrote:I have spent time at Phantom many times on the last W/E the North Rim is open (Mid-October) - and witnessed the hundreds of 'R@R-ers' blasting through the Canyon on their 'quest'. Power Bar wrappers, Gu packets and all sorts of other garbage litter the trail - if lucky they stash the trash at the PR trash cans in the canteen (which is for food purchased there - as it goes out by mule). It is as if they think this is a sanctioned race where there are volunteers to clean up after them. And let's not talk about the rest room (over) usage on a system not designed or intended for this daily volume ... or the downhill runners expecting (demanding) the right-of-way (a big no-no - especially in the Canyon).
These comments seem to pinpoint infrequent high volume instances. Are these issues remotely even an issue 8 months out of the year?
Jan, Feb, Mar, June, July, Aug, Nov, Dec

Having stopped by Phantom Ranch twice in May and twice in June of this year alone I never saw any of the above mentioned. We did see hikers and backpackers underprepared and areas of mule piss that resembled stockyards.

I'm not a runner. I believe there are issues. Be honest, some of the issues are being targeted by hate.

If you go Christmas shopping a week before Christmas expect chaos.
Please do not over manage and make everyone get a shopping permit year 'round!
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by hikeaz » Aug 25 2014 12:25 pm

joe bartels wrote:These comments seem to pinpoint infrequent high volume instances. Are these issues remotely even an issue 8 months out of the year?
Jan, Feb, Mar, June, July, Aug, Nov, Dec

Having stopped by Phantom Ranch twice in May and twice in June of this year alone I never saw any of the above mentioned. We did see hikers and backpackers underprepared and areas of mule piss that resembled stockyards.

I'm not a runner. I believe there are issues.
Yep - May and June (July and August too) sort of police themselves Image . And, not really being 'outdoor' people the typical R2R-er needs the North Rim to be open for the lodge/restaurant/shuttle access, so that generally precludes Mid-October through Mid-April. So I would agree with your assessment that it is a few weeks a year (generally weekends at that) where the issue becomes overboard.

But the feds have a lot of time on their hands (to invent regs) and the PR, GCFI & Xanterra workers have their ear 365.
As we have seen time-and-time-again here on HAZ in these litter & 'no respect for the place' subjects - over time the feds will find an excuse to close it down.
Last edited by hikeaz on Aug 25 2014 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by Tough_Boots » Aug 25 2014 12:29 pm

My recommendation for those who get angry at crowds in the corridor:

You're at the Grand Canyon-- go do a better hike :D
"there is no love where there is no bramble."
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chumley
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by chumley » Aug 25 2014 12:39 pm

joe bartels wrote:I'm not a runner.
Do runners make it up Piestewa Peak in under 18 minutes? ;)
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by SpiderLegs » Aug 25 2014 1:41 pm

It's been 15+ years since my few R2R's and then it seemed like it was an oddball event that not too many people had heard of. I always did it the first weekend the North Rim was open in May or the last weekend it was open in October. It was unusual if I ran into more than a handful of people heading out. So I'm guessing the numbers have increased exponentially since the last time I went.

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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by friendofThundergod » Aug 25 2014 2:53 pm

@Tough_Boots
right? I love the people complaining about the "solitude" of Phantom Ranch being interrupted...mule service, rafting beach destination, dining, bar, lodging, running water, electricity, toilets.. :-k

yup that is where I would go if I was seeking solitude ;)

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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by Tough_Boots » Aug 25 2014 4:12 pm

seriously, if you're hanging out down at the bottom of one of the seven natural wonders of the world and you're complaining-- just go home, turn the TV on, and never leave again :D
"there is no love where there is no bramble."
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by RowdyandMe » Aug 25 2014 4:55 pm

I just want to laugh. Last April was the first time I ever seen the Grand Canyon. And on that day I hike down South Rim to Phantom Ranch had a few beers hike back up Bright Angel Trail made it home for a late dinner and that was that.
I really enjoy the Superstitions more but then it the history of the supes.

Ps I never seen a video of a idiot kicking a poor squirrel on the Ridgeline
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by cactuscat » Aug 27 2014 11:12 am

8.27.14 News Release.R2RPermits.docx
(55.8 KiB) Downloaded 99 times
This would include HAZ groups ...
Where is the "dislike" button?

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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by BobP » Aug 27 2014 11:28 am

cactuscat wrote:This would include HAZ groups ...
Generally, any group, regardless of size, which has advertised to the general public, required individuals to sign up prior to participation, or that has an organizer who has been compensated for their services, including subsidized participation, will be required to obtain a Special Use Permit
.

HAZ doesn't advertise to the general public...we as organizers don't require someone to sign up...and I don't think any organizers (here on HAZ) charge for their services.
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by cactuscat » Aug 27 2014 11:43 am

@BobP
Mmmm ... I think NPS might disagree, but do what feels right I guess.
Where is the "dislike" button?

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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by BobP » Aug 27 2014 11:56 am

cactuscat wrote: I think NPS might disagree
With what aspect?
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by Dschur » Aug 27 2014 12:22 pm

Says group like even Boy Scouts and church groups have to file for a permit...
Groups including, non-profits, schools, church groups, scouts, clubs, and other similar organizations will be required to obtain an SUP for their activity. Any group, regardless of size, which has advertised to the general public, required individuals to sign up prior to participation, or that has an organizer who has been compensated for their services (including subsidized participation in the activity), are required to operate under an SUP.
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by cactuscat » Aug 27 2014 12:25 pm

People do sign up ahead of time for trips from the valley up to the Canyon with HAZ groups, do they not?
And they generally pay drivers of carpools for gas?
They are organized groups ... so without nit-picking the technicalities and wording, if following the SPIRIT of the new regulations, I would think that HAZ groups should get permits.
Where is the "dislike" button?

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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by Dave1 » Aug 27 2014 12:28 pm

:o

What will be required with the SUP?

*An application fee of $175
*The group must provide a certificate of insurance for general liability in the amount of $300,000 with the United States Government listed as additionally insured.

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