Ok This may get tempers going!! - Fossil Creek Management

[backcountrybob]

I just went to Fossil creek first time this year<The Place is Trashed,Diappers Glass,Cans Etc<we picked it up for Hour,Then bunch of Gun Carrying{Rifles } arrived.I think it is Time to close Fossil creek for at least a couple of Years.Give Nature chance to Heal.The publicity is the Problem too many now know about It.
SENATOR Mc Cain You got it Wilderness designation, MAYBE as its almost your back yard you can help Save it from so much Love.

[allanalxndr]

All of the signs in the area do no ban weapons/firearms (as of the last time I was there) but say it is unlawful to discharge around people. Doesn't sound like the firearms were the issue but rather the trash. When I go to the Fossil area, I don't feel like I'm in a war zone, nor would I seeing someone with a firearm... The real problem is the trash that is being dumped/left behind.

[Jeffshadows]

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[te_wa]

well anyway, my initial response should have been secondary to my first thought on the subject regarding the OP's comments... that closing a wilderness area to everyone is silly. Because 10-15% (?) of the visitors leave trash behind, closing the area to the other 85% of visitors is just.plain.BS.
im not sure how many would agree to that twisted logic. my opinion is that it sounds crass (and even that is not strong enough a word). dont like it? move to Russia

then again, maybe all of the areas where mexicans hang their underwear should just be given back to mexico.. then it wouldnt be our problem anymore..

[Sredfield]

I will be sending Letters to Sen McCain and the TV stations ,Maybe enough publicity about the trashing and general over use will get something to happen.

That sounds like a great idea, maybe the press will pick it up as a follow-on to taking the dam down and designation of Fossil Creek as a W&S river.

[writelots]

then again, maybe all of the areas where mexicans hang their underwear should just be given back to mexico.. then it wouldnt be our problem anymore..

Wait a minute - I happen to frequent lots of places like this (read most of the awsome mountains south of Tucson)...and I'd prefer to continue to do so WITHOUT carrying my blinking passport.

Maybe instead we should just ANNEX northern Mexico...large labor force, ample natural resources, miles of coastline... move the border further south until we feel like annexing into the oil-producing states... ;)

[base871]

Well i went down there yesterday, and it wasnt as bad as i was expecting. Not many people either, maybe 10 cars at the trailhead. Noboby at the dam all day. We did pack some trash out, and cut down the neon ribbon along the trail. If someone needs to mark there way down there, they really need to rethink the their hiking lifestyle! Yes i carried my firearm (concealed), not to plink mind you but for my own protection. I think of it as insurance. My life is too important to me to lose it to some pot farmer or tweaker for a few dollars. But thats just me. YOMV

[nonot]

You see people leaving garbage behind, confront them. If they don't pick it up, drop em with a right cross and rub their nose in their own filth.

Worst case: they pick up their stuff and later try to sue you.
Best case: they get scared and never go into the wilderness (and thus never litter) again.

Writing letters will only encourage worthless regulation and fees. Direct confrontation of the bad apples is the only cure.

[Jeffshadows]

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[backcountrybob]

I am familiar with guns ,They were not air soft,but my main concern is that Fossil creek be saved from too many driving destroyers.Tonto has one part Coconino has the other,I have contacted some folks to started .

[Jeffshadows]

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[aa7jc]

if they were indeed firing these rifles within a designated wilderness, that is illegal except when hunting game, in season. Plinking and target practice is a no-no in Wilderness. In some wilderness areas, only rifles and shotguns are allowed. Sidearms and pistols are illegal, fired or not. I think, (not sure yet) that these rifles under AZ law would have to be unloaded and empty chambers. Unless, like i said, under use by a licensed hunter, in season.

Just wondering, do you (or anyone) know where on-line I can read the exact law you are refering to.. about carrying sidearms and also target practicing in wilderness areas?

[Jeffshadows]

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[backcountrybob]

closing a wilderness is practicing something called planning for the future,If thats silly then too bad.If I had a masterpiece damaged by too much exposure I would control how much exposure it got.Because many narrow thinkers see wilderness abundant ,think it is like all the other resources this country wastes ,theres to use and abuse.We are not owners of the land We are custodians .

[dysfunction]

I suppose it's the elite, such as yourself, that get to decide what areas see 'too much exposure'. This is always the way of things with people.

[PaleoRob]

I suppose it's the elite, such as yourself, that get to decide what areas see 'too much exposure'. This is always the way of things with people.

What is a reasonable alternative to restrictions, then, if we don't want to see Fossil Springs trashed (and I assume we can agree on that)? It seems like there is a trade-off to be considered: reducing access, which is in some ways elitist, but would also potentially cut down on the literal trashing of a place, versus populist "access for all" which could help increase awareness of the area, leading to increased stewardship, but also potentially more visitors, which could lead to an uptick in the degradation of the resource. What if the situation was reversed? What if Grand Canyon said they were eliminating permit requirements for everything? Camping/rafting/etc. Anyone could come at any time and camp anywhere. Would that lead to more people having a better experience with The Canyon, or would everyone's backcountry experience be lessened?
Not to once again toot my own horn and mention the so-far fabled touchstone, but my book deals with exactly this issue...hopefully I won't have to keep talking about an as-of-yet unpublished book for long, however!

[dysfunction]

Do not get me wrong, I am all for reasonable management. The problem is that most management ends up being far from reasonable, and lets face it a simple knee-jerk reaction to close access completely meets this definition. Unfortunately this is also the immediate solution many people skip to, without thought to other compromises.

That being said, let us know when it's published I'd like to read it.

[PaleoRob]

Do not get me wrong, I am all for reasonable management. The problem is that most management ends up being far from reasonable

I agree with this entirely.

That being said, let us know when it's published I'd like to read it.

Have no worries, I'll be shouting it to the heavens when it is finally published later this year, no doubt!

[te_wa]

fortunately, i am unwilling to let you close a wilderness, since i as well am one of the owners. you dont cut off your head when you have a headache - Litter is something that can be stopped at the source. I have done my fair share of trash pick-up, and fwiw i also live a low-impact lifestyle. my philosophy of Ultralight backpacking goes way beyond and above the act of hiking.

maybe this is an idea that not many are willing to agree upon, but here goes: if you dont like whats on the radio, turn the channel. i dont like to see the trash at fossil springs and many here have heard me bitch about it so i simply dont go to fossil springs. i dont like that there is trash there, but ive learned something in my wisdom.. you cannot control everything, even if you wish it were so.

there was a recent argument on another place (a triplog) where a well respected hiker decided since the trail was so hard to follow, and he had such a hard time navigating it and therefore did not enjoy himself at all, his idea was that the Forest Service should de-commission the trail entirely. the outcome seems to be an organized effort by other hikers to go in to the area and maintain said trail.

[Grasshopper]

...hopefully I won't have to keep talking about an as-of-yet unpublished book for long, however!

Not intending to highjack this thread, but sounds like "congratulations to you" are close!

[te_wa]

Have no worries, I'll be shouting it to the heavens when it is finally published later this year, no doubt!

if you want the heavens heard, better get a ladder, shortie.

(j/k rob, you know i love you. and im short too.)