Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

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chumley
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Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by chumley »

For years, it has been noted that there are some confusing labels on USGS Maps of the San Francisco Peaks near Flagstaff.

In particular, Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle appear to be transposed. Additionally, Abineau Canyon and Rees Canyon seem to be in the incorrect logical locations.

I was looking at previous trips today and came across an entry by @bknorby which quotes the Wikipedia entry for Doyle Peak. This entry claims that the saddles are actually correct as marked on maps.

So, I clocked out and headed for the library to do some research. What follows is all the information I have uncovered with regards to this mystery.

Wiki Claim
The Wikipedia page for Doyle Peak was created by our own JimH in 2007. It wasn't until Aug. 17, 2014 that the entry was updated with the following information:
• Doyle Saddle is correct on current maps
• Fremont Saddle is correct on current maps
• Doyle Peak is incorrect on current maps and belongs on the flat ridge west of Fremont Peak. (35.320412, -111.666867)
• Shultz Peak is incorrect on current maps and belongs at the currently marked location of Doyle Peak. (35.330216, -111.645881)

*There are no citations for this information on Wikipedia. The author of the edit says only that the information was conveyed to him in a verbal conversation with Dr. Henry L. Giclas in circa 1985. Dr. Giclas was 75 years old at the time, and died in 2007 at the age of 96. So there is no longer any way to verify his account of the names of the peaks and saddles as apparently told to the Wikipedia page editor.

Dr. Giclas, however, was a respected figure in Flagstaff and worked for the Lowell Observatory for his entire adult life. Online sources for Dr. Giclas seem to point to him being an authority on the history of the Observatory and certainly supports the notion that he was familiar with the early days of Flagstaff.
See: Obituary

Schultz Peak Station
One fact that can be verified that supports the Wiki report as told by Dr. Giclas is that what we know of today as Doyle Peak was the site of the "Shultz Peak Station" of the Lowell Observatory in 1926-1927. That's what the "cabin" that remains standing on the peak was built for. Lowell records indicate that this observatory was on a peak at 11,500 feet elevation and was reached via the Weatherford Road followed by a half mile mule ride up the final pitch to the summit. This data matches perfectly with the currently identified Doyle Peak. See draft report to be published in the Antique Telescope Society Journal in 2001 (which I am sofar unable to find).

So despite knowing that there was a "Shultz Peak Station" on the currently identified Doyle Peak, there is nothing else that I can find that supports that the peak it was built on was named Shultz Peak. I am forced to conclude that it was named that simply because Shultz Peak sits below it, or that getting to the observatory station required driving past Schultz Peak.

Maps
My next step was to investigate all the historical maps for the area. The USGS published a map in 1886 (under the direction of USGS Director J. W. Powell) in a 1:250k scale titled "San Francisco Mt." Revised editions published in 1891, 1894, 1900, 1905, and 1909 all have no identifying peaks other than San Francisco Mountain (Humphreys).

The 1911 revision of this map added "Schulz Pass" and Agassiz Peak (but NOT Schulz Peak).

The 1954 revision of this map is the first one to include Doyle Peak. It is located in the same place that USGS maps list it today. (35.330216, -111.645881)

The first USGS 1:125k scale map was published in 1912 and identifies San Francisco Peak (Humphreys) and Agassiz. There are no labels for Fremont or Schulz.

The 1939 revision of the 1:125k map is the first to have Fremont and Agassiz. Schultz peak is also newly labeled, and is in the same location it is identified on maps today (35.315632, -111.631612). The peak we know as Doyle today is not labeled.

The first published 1:24k quad for this area was the 1966 "Humphreys Peak" Quad. This map has all the peaks and saddles marked exactly as they are on maps today.

US Board on Geographic Names
The official naming organization in the United States is the BGN. It was created in 1890. But, in this modern world, they have digitized all their historical records. So I looked them all up. :) Unfortunately their website doesn't create static links, so you can either search them for yourself here, or be happy that I've included PDFs of most of the relevant data in this post.

Schultz Peak
Since the Schultz Peak Station was located on the peak we call Doyle I thought it was a good place to start.
GNIS_Detail _Schultz_Peak.pdf
Shultz Peak Detail
(106.25 KiB) Downloaded 117 times
Actual Decision Card
DecisionCard_05848_Schultz.pdf
1933 Schultz Peak Decision Card
(32.69 KiB) Downloaded 119 times
Note that there is an error on the card. Shultz Peak is southeast of Fremont not southwest as indicated. But the other information including map Section indicated correctly identifies the location it appears on maps today.

Fremont Peak
I don't think this one is disputed anywhere.
GNIS Detail - Fremont Peak.pdf
Fremont Peak Detail
(268.78 KiB) Downloaded 177 times
Decision Card
DecisionCard_05445_Fremont Peak.pdf
1933 Fremont Peak Decision Card
(44.96 KiB) Downloaded 99 times
Doyle Peak
Doyle Peak was not entered into the BGN Database in 1933 as the others were. In fact, it wasn't entered until 1980! (This is the case for Abineau and Rees Peaks as well ... more on that later). Therefore, there is no original card for Doyle Peak.
GNIS Detail - Doyle Peak.pdf
Doyle Peak Detail
(238.4 KiB) Downloaded 100 times
Doyle Saddle
This is interesting. Despite there being no Doyle Peak in the BGN Database in 1933, Doyle SADDLE was clearly marked at that time. And it is blatantly described as being between Agassiz and Fremont Peaks. Is that indication a mistake? Possibly, but it was a mistake made from the very beginning.
DecisionCard_05388_Doyle_Saddle.pdf
1933 Doyle Saddle Decision Card
(27.65 KiB) Downloaded 100 times
Fremont Saddle
Just like Doyle Saddle, Fremont Saddle was entered in the database in 1933. It was described specifically as it is marked on maps today. Interestingly, it also says that the peak east of the saddle is unnamed. (That's what we call Doyle today).
DecisionCard_05446_Fremont_Saddle.pdf
1933 Fremont Saddle Decision Card
(27.82 KiB) Downloaded 105 times
It should be noted that both the Fremont and Doyle Saddle detail pages have a citation that indicates each is sometimes referred to by the other name.
Citation
U.S. Department of Agriculture, U.S. Forest Service, secondary base series ("visitors") maps at various scales, not including 1:24,000 scale maps, various edition dates; latest editions at the time of Phase IA data compilation (1990-1991). The forest name or a code representing the FS region (00 = HQ) followed by a two digit forest number and the year of publication follow (if known): Coconino NF/1984
Translation: Beginning in 1984, the Coconino NF published visitors maps where the location of Fremont and Doyle Saddle are transposed. The USGS has not made that change on the 24k maps and there's no explanation as to why the FS maps made the change.

The Other Side of the Peaks
On the north side of the peaks, the names for Abineau and Rees Peak were not entered into the BGN database until 1980. Nor were Abineau and Reese Canyons. But similar to Fremont and Doyle Saddles, the named canyons don't seem to be in the correct logical location.

Interestingly, despite not being entered until 1980, there are supporting documents from earlier dates that are attached to the record:
AZ_25840_002_Aubineau Canyon_frm_1967.pdf
1967 Abineau Correction
(94.9 KiB) Downloaded 123 times
AZ_25840_003_Aubineau Canyon_cor_1967.pdf
1967 Correction
(40.54 KiB) Downloaded 103 times
AZ_25435_001_Aubineau Peak_frm_1969.pdf
1969 correction
(88.53 KiB) Downloaded 181 times
AZ_33556_007_Reese Canyon_cor_1969.pdf
1969 Rees correction
(139.58 KiB) Downloaded 1648 times
AZ_33556_004_Reese Canyon_cor_1967.pdf
1967 Reese correction
(39.51 KiB) Downloaded 150 times
And more interestingly this map which corrects the spelling of Reese, but also shows that Doyle and Fremont Saddle are where they have always have been indicated:
AZ_33556_002_Reese Canyon_sup_1942.pdf
1942 map
(59.46 KiB) Downloaded 133 times
Books
So I walked over to the library to find some of the best books about Flagstaff history.
After looking at each of the following:
They Came to the Mountain
Northern Arizona and Flagstaff in 1887
Mountain Town: Flagstaff's First Century
I found many references to the peaks, and even the names of some of them. None of them indicate any reference to Schultz Peak being in the location currently know as Doyle Peak, and none suggest that Doyle Peak should be on the ridge west of Fremont.

What Does it all Mean?
Well, that's still up for debate apparently! As much as I'd like to believe the secondhand verbal account of the late Dr. Giclas posted on the Wikipedia page, I have found no data to support that account of the alternate locations for Doyle and Schultz peaks.

And as much as we all think that Fremont and Doyle Saddles are incorrectly marked on current maps, all historical documents point to the fact that they are in fact marked exactly where they are supposed to be.

Could they have been marked in the incorrect spot from the very beginning in 1933? Absolutely. However, records show that corrections were submitted to the Board of Geographic Names for spelling variations for Abineau and Rees, including maps that show those northern slope canyons to be in the non-logical locations in relation to their associated peaks. All the while also showing the two saddles in the same place they are now. If the local ranchers and historic agencies such as the City of Flagstaff Water Department were aware enough to request official changes to the spelling of place names, I believe they would have certainly also done so with the locations of map features on the peaks if they were incorrectly labeled in contradiction to local nomenclature.

My Conclusions
• The current USGS topo maps are correct.
• The Wikipedia entry suggesting that the currently marked saddles are in the correct location is correct.
• BUT the reason why ... that Doyle and Schultz peaks are marked incorrectly can't be substantiated.
• Doyle Saddle is located between Agassiz and Fremont Peaks (35.32274, -111.671416).
• Fremont Saddle is located between Fremont and Doyle Peaks (35.3271, -111.651761).
• Schultz Peak is southeast of Doyle Peak (35.315649, -111.631569).
• The ridge west of Fremont Peak is not named Doyle and never has been (35.320412, -111.667081).
• Abineau Canyon is between Humphreys and unnamed peak 11,783.
• Reese Canyon is between unnamed peak 11,783 and Abineau Peak (and is correctly spelled Rees).
• Bear Jaw Canyon is between Abineau Peak and Rees Peak.

Further Input Welcome
I am not a historian nor do I have any great knowledge of Flagstaff history. I have tried to compile as much factual, verifiable (and cited) data on these geographic place names as I could find. But I would be very interested to hear from anybody with more information or links to sites or books that provide more specific data about this subject. Please post here!
:thanx:
Last edited by chumley on Aug 30 2016 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by azbackpackr »

: app : Wow, good research work. Very much appreciated.
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by The_Eagle »

@Chumley
Some very thorough and exhaustive research done here... Great job. But the one statement, right from the beginning that makes this much less believable...

"So, I clocked out......". Do you really expect us to believe that......
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by tibber »

@chumley
This is interesting. Despite there being no Doyle Peak in the BGN Database in 1933, Doyle SADDLE was clearly marked at that time. And it is blatantly described as being between Agassiz and Fremont Peaks. Is that indication a mistake? Possibly, but it was a mistake made from the very beginning.
Fremont Saddle
Just like Doyle Saddle, Fremont Saddle was entered in the database in 1933. It was described specifically as it is marked on maps today. Interestingly, it also says that the peak east of the saddle is unnamed. (That's what we call Doyle today).
THAT is interesting!
The USGS has not made that change on the 24k maps and there's no explanation as to why the FS maps made the change.
SHEESH!
And more interestingly this map which corrects the spelling of Reese, but also shows that Doyle and Fremont Saddle are where they have always have been indicated:
hmmmm.
all historical documents point to the fact that they are in fact marked exactly where they are supposed to be.
and I think that's what we have to go with then despite some of the logic not being that... at least to me.

Anyway, a very nice job of trying to sort it all out :app: in even language I can understand.
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by ddgrunning »

I remember spending some time looking into this as well several years back. Unfortunately, I didn't commit my research to writing and now, of course, can't remember all the sources I looked at.

I do note that the FS Topo layer here on HAZ labels Doyle Saddle b/t Fremont and Doyle Peaks, and Fremont Saddle b/t Fremont and Agassiz Peaks.

The biggest problem is the lack of agreement on what should be labeled what. In the absence of agreement, peoples' descriptions tend to be rather confusing.

For my own sake, I refer to Doyle Saddle as the one between Fremont Peak and Doyle peak; and I refer to Fremont Saddle as the one between Fremont Peak and Agassiz Peak. This just makes common sense and avoids confusion, based on the general agreement now about what the various peaks are named.
Last edited by ddgrunning on Aug 31 2016 7:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by ddgrunning »

In discussing the construction of the Weatherford Road (aka San Francisco Mountain Boulevard) in the 1920s, the Weatherford Hotel website includes a quote that suggests an understanding that Fremont Saddle was between Fremont and Agassiz Peaks:

“The projected route was beautiful but daunting. From a tollgate near Flagstaff’s municipal reservoir, the road was slated to proceed north past Arnold Spring (present day Aspen Spring) and Schultz Spring, climb a series of switchbacks to the saddle between Doyle and Fremont peaks. From this point, the road would enter the interior valley of the peaks, the inside flank of Fremont Peak, crossing Freemont Saddle, and beginning the steep ascent along the interior of Agassiz Peak. Finally it would follow the rocky spine leading to the top of Mount Humphreys.”1

( dead link removed ) Although the quotation appears to reference a fn. (superscript 1), there is no actual footnote to the referenced source .... :-k
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by chumley »

ddgrunning wrote:This just makes common sense and avoids confusion,
While I agree it makes common sense, it certainly does not avoid confusion! :lol:

Until yesterday, I too used the same names that you use. But there is no common sense involved here, as also illustrated by Abineau, Rees, and Bear Jaw Canyons. http://hikearizona.com/photo.php?ZIP=507844

As for the FS Topo Layer, that was addressed in the citation to both detail cards for Fremont and Doyle Saddles.

I forget where I saw it ... but it may have been on the wiki page ... indicating that some modern mapping services that rely on user input have "corrected" the saddle locations to the "logical" location. It specifically mentioned Google Maps. It's interesting to note that as of today, Google Maps shows the location of the saddles exactly as the USGS has them. So if Google ever did change them, they also changed them back. Possibly after being unable to verify that there was an error? Logic be damned!
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by ddgrunning »

There's an archived article on The Arizona Republic from April 3, 1921 on the Weatherford Road that includes a map of the proposed road: ( dead link removed ), and the accompanying article seems to suggest (by its description) that Fremont Saddle was understood to be between (current) Fremont and Doyle Peaks, while Doyle Saddle was between Agassiz and Freemont:

"Passing through the Fremont saddle the scenery suddenly changes and the traveler is confronted by the stark volcanic peaks and the weird crater. From this point the road follows along the side of Fremont mountain to the spruce clad Doyle saddle. At this point there , is an abundance of water near-by and Mr. Weatherford informs us that the boulevard company intends to construct a mountain lodge there, complete in every detail, with modern conveniences, for the accommodation of those who wish to enjoy the unusual view and bracing mountain air for longer than a day. Both Agassiz and Humphreys peaks are easily accessible from here and also the crater for those who wish to have a close'-up view of the mysteries of the interior basin."
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by joebartels »

- joe
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by big_load »

I like it better when things make sense.
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by Nighthiker »

I have a large collection of various types of maps and have noted this on various maps and editions of the same map. For example on the Ton to national Forest map has a Black Cross Butte near Fish Creek. The USGS topo map for the same area has two Black Cross Buttes.
jk
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by chumley »

@Nighthiker
If you go to this link:
http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/

and type "black cross butte" (Maricopa County) you can view the decision cards on the two locations.
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by CannondaleKid »

Nighthiker wrote:For example on the Tonto national Forest map has a Black Cross Butte near Fish Creek. The USGS topo map for the same area has two Black Cross Buttes.
The FS Topo overlay on Route Manager has BOTH Black Cross Buttes labeled.
(I've been on BCB 3351 a few times but have yet to bag BCB 4806)
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by joebartels »

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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by ddgrunning »

chumley wrote:Doyle Peak was not entered into the BGN Database in 1933 as the others were. In fact, it wasn't entered until 1980!
chumley wrote:Despite there being no Doyle Peak in the BGN Database in 1933, Doyle SADDLE was clearly marked at that time. And it is blatantly described as being between Agassiz and Fremont Peaks.
Here's my theory: Before Doyle Peak was named, it wouldn't have seemed strange for Fremont Saddle to be on the east side of Fremont Peak, nor would it necessarily have been strange for the saddle between Agassiz and Fremont to have its own name--Doyle.

The problem likely arose when the powers that be decided to name the peak east of Fremont, "Doyle Peak." Only then did it become rather strange to have "Doyle Saddle" a full mountain away from "Doyle Peak." Thus, prompting a general outbreak of OCD to swap the names and bring order back to the universe.

The end.
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by ddgrunning »

More support for the Doyle Saddle being b/t Agassiz and Fremont Peaks, below. I'm now convinced that this is the historically correct location of Doyle Saddle, and that Fremont Saddle is b/t Fremont and Doyle Peaks. Will I change how I refer to them in outside of HAZ ....?

From the FS website: http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/coconino/ ... rdb5340115

"Doyle Peak, and Doyle Saddle, which connects Agassiz and Fremont Peaks, were named in 1933 by Dr. Harold S. Colton, founder of the Museum of Northern Arizona, for Allen Doyle (1850-1920), a cattleman and guide. Doyle went to Prescott as a miner and drove cattle from there to Flagstaff in 1881. He stayed in the Flagstaff area to become famous as a guide for many notables, including Zane Grey, the famous author of many western novels."

Also, the book: The Guide to Arizona's Wilderness Areas [https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Arizonas-W ... ikearizona] (pg. 62) suggests that the camp remains at the saddle b/t Agassiz and Fremont were from a camp established by Allen Doyle, hence the genesis for naming this saddle after him:
Attachments
Doyle Saddle.png
Last edited by joebartels on Aug 27 2018 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by chumley »

@ddgrunning That attachment indicates the opposite of your post...
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by ddgrunning »

@chumley By label in the text, yes. But my point was that the camp, the remains of which can still be found at the saddle b/t Agassiz and Fremont peaks, was Doyle's camp; thus, giving a factual basis for naming the saddle, "Doyle Saddle" (despite the nomenclature used in the text itself).
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by ddgrunning »

Bump: I was just reading the Humphreys from IB trail guide [ Humphreys via Inner Basin ] and noted this comment: "Continue west 0.8 miles on the Weatherford Trail up it's easier switchbacks to Fremont Saddle. Keep in mind this is incorrectly marked Doyle Saddle on old topo maps." Is there still debate on the accuracy of the "old topo" maps? Based on the information in this thread, it doesn't seem that the old maps were incorrect after all. Time to update the guide? Or is this a case where modern usage will eventually just win out against historical accuracy?
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by chumley »

@ddgrunning
HAZ is a user-generated site. Whoever writes the description can write it whatever way they want. In this case, the author is a well-known contributor to the site. I wouldn't ever attempt to correct him. :sweat:
ddgrunning wrote: Jul 31 2019 1:28 pm is this a case where modern usage will eventually just win out against historical accuracy
I would say, probably.
I'm not sure what my spirit animal is, but I'm confident it has rabies.
contribute to this member driven resource
ie: RS > Save/Share after hikes Route Scout GPS Topo Mapper on the App Store Route Scout GPS Topo Mapper on Google Play
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