Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

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chumley
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Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by chumley »

For years, it has been noted that there are some confusing labels on USGS Maps of the San Francisco Peaks near Flagstaff.

In particular, Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle appear to be transposed. Additionally, Abineau Canyon and Rees Canyon seem to be in the incorrect logical locations.

I was looking at previous trips today and came across an entry by @bknorby which quotes the Wikipedia entry for Doyle Peak. This entry claims that the saddles are actually correct as marked on maps.

So, I clocked out and headed for the library to do some research. What follows is all the information I have uncovered with regards to this mystery.

Wiki Claim
The Wikipedia page for Doyle Peak was created by our own JimH in 2007. It wasn't until Aug. 17, 2014 that the entry was updated with the following information:
• Doyle Saddle is correct on current maps
• Fremont Saddle is correct on current maps
• Doyle Peak is incorrect on current maps and belongs on the flat ridge west of Fremont Peak. (35.320412, -111.666867)
• Shultz Peak is incorrect on current maps and belongs at the currently marked location of Doyle Peak. (35.330216, -111.645881)

*There are no citations for this information on Wikipedia. The author of the edit says only that the information was conveyed to him in a verbal conversation with Dr. Henry L. Giclas in circa 1985. Dr. Giclas was 75 years old at the time, and died in 2007 at the age of 96. So there is no longer any way to verify his account of the names of the peaks and saddles as apparently told to the Wikipedia page editor.

Dr. Giclas, however, was a respected figure in Flagstaff and worked for the Lowell Observatory for his entire adult life. Online sources for Dr. Giclas seem to point to him being an authority on the history of the Observatory and certainly supports the notion that he was familiar with the early days of Flagstaff.
See: Obituary

Schultz Peak Station
One fact that can be verified that supports the Wiki report as told by Dr. Giclas is that what we know of today as Doyle Peak was the site of the "Shultz Peak Station" of the Lowell Observatory in 1926-1927. That's what the "cabin" that remains standing on the peak was built for. Lowell records indicate that this observatory was on a peak at 11,500 feet elevation and was reached via the Weatherford Road followed by a half mile mule ride up the final pitch to the summit. This data matches perfectly with the currently identified Doyle Peak. See draft report to be published in the Antique Telescope Society Journal in 2001 (which I am sofar unable to find).

So despite knowing that there was a "Shultz Peak Station" on the currently identified Doyle Peak, there is nothing else that I can find that supports that the peak it was built on was named Shultz Peak. I am forced to conclude that it was named that simply because Shultz Peak sits below it, or that getting to the observatory station required driving past Schultz Peak.

Maps
My next step was to investigate all the historical maps for the area. The USGS published a map in 1886 (under the direction of USGS Director J. W. Powell) in a 1:250k scale titled "San Francisco Mt." Revised editions published in 1891, 1894, 1900, 1905, and 1909 all have no identifying peaks other than San Francisco Mountain (Humphreys).

The 1911 revision of this map added "Schulz Pass" and Agassiz Peak (but NOT Schulz Peak).

The 1954 revision of this map is the first one to include Doyle Peak. It is located in the same place that USGS maps list it today. (35.330216, -111.645881)

The first USGS 1:125k scale map was published in 1912 and identifies San Francisco Peak (Humphreys) and Agassiz. There are no labels for Fremont or Schulz.

The 1939 revision of the 1:125k map is the first to have Fremont and Agassiz. Schultz peak is also newly labeled, and is in the same location it is identified on maps today (35.315632, -111.631612). The peak we know as Doyle today is not labeled.

The first published 1:24k quad for this area was the 1966 "Humphreys Peak" Quad. This map has all the peaks and saddles marked exactly as they are on maps today.

US Board on Geographic Names
The official naming organization in the United States is the BGN. It was created in 1890. But, in this modern world, they have digitized all their historical records. So I looked them all up. :) Unfortunately their website doesn't create static links, so you can either search them for yourself here, or be happy that I've included PDFs of most of the relevant data in this post.

Schultz Peak
Since the Schultz Peak Station was located on the peak we call Doyle I thought it was a good place to start.
GNIS_Detail _Schultz_Peak.pdf
Shultz Peak Detail
(106.25 KiB) Downloaded 117 times
Actual Decision Card
DecisionCard_05848_Schultz.pdf
1933 Schultz Peak Decision Card
(32.69 KiB) Downloaded 119 times
Note that there is an error on the card. Shultz Peak is southeast of Fremont not southwest as indicated. But the other information including map Section indicated correctly identifies the location it appears on maps today.

Fremont Peak
I don't think this one is disputed anywhere.
GNIS Detail - Fremont Peak.pdf
Fremont Peak Detail
(268.78 KiB) Downloaded 178 times
Decision Card
DecisionCard_05445_Fremont Peak.pdf
1933 Fremont Peak Decision Card
(44.96 KiB) Downloaded 99 times
Doyle Peak
Doyle Peak was not entered into the BGN Database in 1933 as the others were. In fact, it wasn't entered until 1980! (This is the case for Abineau and Rees Peaks as well ... more on that later). Therefore, there is no original card for Doyle Peak.
GNIS Detail - Doyle Peak.pdf
Doyle Peak Detail
(238.4 KiB) Downloaded 100 times
Doyle Saddle
This is interesting. Despite there being no Doyle Peak in the BGN Database in 1933, Doyle SADDLE was clearly marked at that time. And it is blatantly described as being between Agassiz and Fremont Peaks. Is that indication a mistake? Possibly, but it was a mistake made from the very beginning.
DecisionCard_05388_Doyle_Saddle.pdf
1933 Doyle Saddle Decision Card
(27.65 KiB) Downloaded 100 times
Fremont Saddle
Just like Doyle Saddle, Fremont Saddle was entered in the database in 1933. It was described specifically as it is marked on maps today. Interestingly, it also says that the peak east of the saddle is unnamed. (That's what we call Doyle today).
DecisionCard_05446_Fremont_Saddle.pdf
1933 Fremont Saddle Decision Card
(27.82 KiB) Downloaded 105 times
It should be noted that both the Fremont and Doyle Saddle detail pages have a citation that indicates each is sometimes referred to by the other name.
Citation
U.S. Department of Agriculture, U.S. Forest Service, secondary base series ("visitors") maps at various scales, not including 1:24,000 scale maps, various edition dates; latest editions at the time of Phase IA data compilation (1990-1991). The forest name or a code representing the FS region (00 = HQ) followed by a two digit forest number and the year of publication follow (if known): Coconino NF/1984
Translation: Beginning in 1984, the Coconino NF published visitors maps where the location of Fremont and Doyle Saddle are transposed. The USGS has not made that change on the 24k maps and there's no explanation as to why the FS maps made the change.

The Other Side of the Peaks
On the north side of the peaks, the names for Abineau and Rees Peak were not entered into the BGN database until 1980. Nor were Abineau and Reese Canyons. But similar to Fremont and Doyle Saddles, the named canyons don't seem to be in the correct logical location.

Interestingly, despite not being entered until 1980, there are supporting documents from earlier dates that are attached to the record:
AZ_25840_002_Aubineau Canyon_frm_1967.pdf
1967 Abineau Correction
(94.9 KiB) Downloaded 123 times
AZ_25840_003_Aubineau Canyon_cor_1967.pdf
1967 Correction
(40.54 KiB) Downloaded 103 times
AZ_25435_001_Aubineau Peak_frm_1969.pdf
1969 correction
(88.53 KiB) Downloaded 181 times
AZ_33556_007_Reese Canyon_cor_1969.pdf
1969 Rees correction
(139.58 KiB) Downloaded 1648 times
AZ_33556_004_Reese Canyon_cor_1967.pdf
1967 Reese correction
(39.51 KiB) Downloaded 150 times
And more interestingly this map which corrects the spelling of Reese, but also shows that Doyle and Fremont Saddle are where they have always have been indicated:
AZ_33556_002_Reese Canyon_sup_1942.pdf
1942 map
(59.46 KiB) Downloaded 133 times
Books
So I walked over to the library to find some of the best books about Flagstaff history.
After looking at each of the following:
They Came to the Mountain
Northern Arizona and Flagstaff in 1887
Mountain Town: Flagstaff's First Century
I found many references to the peaks, and even the names of some of them. None of them indicate any reference to Schultz Peak being in the location currently know as Doyle Peak, and none suggest that Doyle Peak should be on the ridge west of Fremont.

What Does it all Mean?
Well, that's still up for debate apparently! As much as I'd like to believe the secondhand verbal account of the late Dr. Giclas posted on the Wikipedia page, I have found no data to support that account of the alternate locations for Doyle and Schultz peaks.

And as much as we all think that Fremont and Doyle Saddles are incorrectly marked on current maps, all historical documents point to the fact that they are in fact marked exactly where they are supposed to be.

Could they have been marked in the incorrect spot from the very beginning in 1933? Absolutely. However, records show that corrections were submitted to the Board of Geographic Names for spelling variations for Abineau and Rees, including maps that show those northern slope canyons to be in the non-logical locations in relation to their associated peaks. All the while also showing the two saddles in the same place they are now. If the local ranchers and historic agencies such as the City of Flagstaff Water Department were aware enough to request official changes to the spelling of place names, I believe they would have certainly also done so with the locations of map features on the peaks if they were incorrectly labeled in contradiction to local nomenclature.

My Conclusions
• The current USGS topo maps are correct.
• The Wikipedia entry suggesting that the currently marked saddles are in the correct location is correct.
• BUT the reason why ... that Doyle and Schultz peaks are marked incorrectly can't be substantiated.
• Doyle Saddle is located between Agassiz and Fremont Peaks (35.32274, -111.671416).
• Fremont Saddle is located between Fremont and Doyle Peaks (35.3271, -111.651761).
• Schultz Peak is southeast of Doyle Peak (35.315649, -111.631569).
• The ridge west of Fremont Peak is not named Doyle and never has been (35.320412, -111.667081).
• Abineau Canyon is between Humphreys and unnamed peak 11,783.
• Reese Canyon is between unnamed peak 11,783 and Abineau Peak (and is correctly spelled Rees).
• Bear Jaw Canyon is between Abineau Peak and Rees Peak.

Further Input Welcome
I am not a historian nor do I have any great knowledge of Flagstaff history. I have tried to compile as much factual, verifiable (and cited) data on these geographic place names as I could find. But I would be very interested to hear from anybody with more information or links to sites or books that provide more specific data about this subject. Please post here!
:thanx:
Last edited by chumley on Aug 30 2016 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by joebartels »

ddgrunning wrote: Jul 31 2019 1:28 pm Bump: I was just reading the Humphreys from IB trail guide [ Humphreys via Inner Basin ] and noted this comment: "Continue west 0.8 miles on the Weatherford Trail up it's easier switchbacks to Fremont Saddle. Keep in mind this is incorrectly marked Doyle Saddle on old topo maps." Is there still debate on the accuracy of the "old topo" maps? Based on the information in this thread, it doesn't seem that the old maps were incorrect after all. Time to update the guide? Or is this a case where modern usage will eventually just win out against historical accuracy?
word added to let the reader mull it over
- joe
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by markthurman53 »

I heard that Doyle and Fremont Saddles were incorrect a few years back and the location of each would support that. Who would of thunk the peaks were incorrect. Whats easier to move a Peak or a Saddle?
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by Jim »

Proof that most of what we do in life is pointless and trivial, I had no memory of ever writing the original Wikipedia Page for Doyle. Yet, there in the page history, was the evidence I had in 2007. That was my old work log-in at the time, btw, if you are wondered why I chose that series of letters and numbers.

In defense of myself and any claims of inaccuracy, and keeping in mind I now have no recollection of any of this from 2007, I would have either used maps, or information locals gave me, which itself could have been inaccurate. I have no idea where the cabin reference came from, unless I simply drew that conclusion from the appearance of it at the time, or someone else referred to it as such and the designation stuck. I seem to recall that the Basque herders were put forth as a likely source of the construction. The telescope structure is an interesting one.

I don't know, do the best you can. I'm far more proud that this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bris ... gstaff.jpg
still remains on the Fremont Page. It was a print, that I scanned, and then uploaded, pre-digital camera. At least, I think so.
Last edited by Jim on Jul 31 2019 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by chumley »

Jim_H wrote:if you are wondered why I chose that series of letters and numbers
Nope. Literally not a single person on the entire internet looked at that, nor did they wonder about it! :sweat:
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by Jim »

@chumley Well, ever charming and welcoming, how did you figure out I had written the original page for Doyle? Clearly, the user name I did it under in 2007 was never used anywhere else.
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Re: Fremont Saddle and Doyle Saddle location incorrect

Post by ShatteredArm »

Interesting info, I always thought they were incorrectly labeled, but this seems to indicate that Doyle Saddle may have predated Doyle Peak. Interestingly, Doyle Spring is labeled on maps in the drainage down the north side of (saddle between Fremont and Agassiz Peaks), would be interesting to know when the spring was named.
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