Ok This may get tempers going!! - Fossil Creek Management

[backcountrybob]

I just went to Fossil creek first time this year<The Place is Trashed,Diappers Glass,Cans Etc<we picked it up for Hour,Then bunch of Gun Carrying{Rifles } arrived.I think it is Time to close Fossil creek for at least a couple of Years.Give Nature chance to Heal.The publicity is the Problem too many now know about It.
SENATOR Mc Cain You got it Wilderness designation, MAYBE as its almost your back yard you can help Save it from so much Love.

[JimmyLyding]

Do people get the general impression that the people who are vandalizing the area and leaving behind trash are from the general vicinity or people who come from outside of the area?

[base871]

Im sure its a mixture of both. But it seems they are talking about the area below the bridge, not the area by the springs. Am i correct?

[Jeffshadows]

"In only two hours on July 11, patrols issued 10 violation notices to Verde Valley and Prescott Valley residents for drug and alcohol violations, reckless driving, shooting, etc. Half the violators were on probation and 80 percent had prior convictions for everything from assault to burglary. Officers also came across two vehicle accidents."

...And some people wonder why there are those of us are so adamant about being armed when were out in places like this...

[backcountrybob]

Hey all
Trying to see who will be going there on the 7th,I will be getting there on th6th afternoon ,will set up at Old Corral past Y in road to Verde ,will put Sign at turn its OK for high clearance to enter very careful anyhow as the rd here can get rough!
and clean up It good for group use.

[chumley]

I don't like paying for things that should be free, so I disagree with a fee-based management system. But it may be helpful to require a permit for access. Maybe not quite as restrictive in numbers allowed as Aravaipa, but that may be a good model to follow. (Minus the $5 fee).

People who plan ahead (more than a few days) tend to be the more respectful type, and while getting permits, some education about the fragility of the environment can be passed along. Not to mention, it's probably helpful to have the names of the people who were there in the event something does happen.

I don't know if it would be possible for the road-accessible portion of lower Fossil Creek, but it should be possible to manage the springs area this way.

[Thoreau]

"In only two hours on July 11, patrols issued 10 violation notices to Verde Valley and Prescott Valley residents for drug and alcohol violations, reckless driving, shooting, etc. Half the violators were on probation and 80 percent had prior convictions for everything from assault to burglary. Officers also came across two vehicle accidents."

...And some people wonder why there are those of us are so adamant about being armed when were out in places like this...

I definitely no longer think it was overkill when I carried on my last trip out there (open carry in a thigh rig no less.) Had no idea things were getting THAT bad out there. =(

[Jeffshadows]

"In only two hours on July 11, patrols issued 10 violation notices to Verde Valley and Prescott Valley residents for drug and alcohol violations, reckless driving, shooting, etc. Half the violators were on probation and 80 percent had prior convictions for everything from assault to burglary. Officers also came across two vehicle accidents."

...And some people wonder why there are those of us are so adamant about being armed when were out in places like this...

I definitely no longer think it was overkill when I carried on my last trip out there (open carry in a thigh rig no less.) Had no idea things were getting THAT bad out there. =(

I'm thinking about switching back to thigh, actually. Do you bang into things with it at all?

[joebartels]

I'm thinking about switching back to thigh, actually. Do you bang into things with it at all?

It only takes one bang ;)

[Thoreau]

"In only two hours on July 11, patrols issued 10 violation notices to Verde Valley and Prescott Valley residents for drug and alcohol violations, reckless driving, shooting, etc. Half the violators were on probation and 80 percent had prior convictions for everything from assault to burglary. Officers also came across two vehicle accidents."

...And some people wonder why there are those of us are so adamant about being armed when were out in places like this...

I definitely no longer think it was overkill when I carried on my last trip out there (open carry in a thigh rig no less.) Had no idea things were getting THAT bad out there. =(

I'm thinking about switching back to thigh, actually. Do you bang into things with it at all?

I'm pretty much the definition of 'overly cautious' when carrying, so so far I've been all clear. The only hike I've been on so far where that was an issue was the peak above Flatiron. One or two spots required disarming/removing the gun from the holster and placing it aside while navigating tight quarters.

Also pulls down HARD on the belt on the side where it's mounted, which in turn makes the belt dig in on the opposite side. Haven't quite figured out a fix for that yet, but it sure beats not having any way to carry it on a backpacking trip due to the hip-belts of most packs. I do tend to stick to a paddle holster on day hikes since a day pack doesn't interfere with that, and the comfort level is a lot higher.

On topic as well, I just looked at that PPT file and all I can say is WOW. I really just don't know where to start after seeing those pictures.

[allanalxndr]

Also pulls down HARD on the belt on the side where it's mounted, which in turn makes the belt dig in on the opposite side. Haven't quite figured out a fix for that yet, but it sure beats not having any way to carry it on a backpacking trip due to the hip-belts of most packs.

This may have been mentioned before but have you considered a Safepacker from The Wilderness? The loop can be made into different sizes from the way its sown and velcro'ed on so it should fit on most packs. I have a cheap Kelty pack is one of the bigger sized hipbelts I have seen and it works fine.
This is my preferred way to pack while on backpacking trips. Protects the gun, and still provides quick access if need be.

*Edit to add: depending on who you run into and deal with, please remember that even though this is sold as a holster, it would qualify as concealment and require a permit to legally carry in this manner...

[JimmyLyding]

Just roll Plaxico-style: tucked into the waistband of some sweatpants

[Dschur]

Was trying to find a thread to put this in and think it is good here... If any one can find a better place go ahead and move it.....

Fossil Creek plan would close road
Shuttle service, camping ban, could protect creek from big weekend crowds
By Alexis Bechman

March 4, 2011
The Forest Service may soon impose fees, ban cars and run a shuttle service down the twisting canyon road to Fossil Creek, according to a sneak peek of a draft plan offered this week.

The plan would continue a ban on camping and fires and sharply limit access by cars to protect the creek from the impact of the thousands of summer weekend visitors who flock to the blue-green waters of the spring-fed creek.

“We all think Fossil Creek is our slice of heaven, but we are loving it to death,” said Gila County Supervisor Tommie Martin after a meeting this week involving the Forest Service and local business and political leaders.

Last summer, the federal government designated the gushing, spring-fed creek as one of two stretches of wild and scenic rivers in Arizona due to its “outstandingly remarkable values.”

The creek remains one of the most pristine riparian areas in the state and one of the last refuges for endangered native fish and other species.

The beauty and the swimming holes have drawn a flock of visitors to the river, who often leave behind tons of trash, glass and a crowded mess. Before the Forest Service banned camping and fires, rangers every weekend found multiple abandoned campfires left behind by visitors.

Over the last two years, the Forest Service has monitored attendance levels and during some holiday weekends, around 1,000 people travel down the narrow, dangerous road to reach the river each day.

With limited parking and river access, visitors park where they can — often blocking the roadway.

To preserve the creek’s water quality and protect endangered and threatened species that call the area home, the Forest Service hired planning experts to gather public input and create a river management plan last year.

On Thursday, planners met with a small group of Pine business owners and county officials to discuss a draft of the plan.

Highlights of the plan include:

• Limit visitors to the creek during May through September

• Hire a private industry to run a shuttle service during the busiest holidays and weekends

• Ban campfires and camping in the middle corridor of the river

• Prohibit glass containers

• Add composting toilets, picnic tables, trash service, information kiosks and shade structures

• Institute year-round fees

Thursday’s meeting falls on the heels of a three-hour meeting in November where the public debated closing the road, limiting access, charging fees or doing nothing at all.

Forest Service planners said they took ideas from that meeting and drafted a management plan.

The plan falls in the middle of closing the creek and leaving it wide open.

“We are trying to come up with the best solution,” said John Titre, a planner for the Forest Service.

“We are looking at all ideas, so nothing is finalized.”

Lynn Humphrey, another planner, said the Forest Service’s top priorities are protecting the river’s remarkable values, water quality and free flow conditions without banning visitors.

“We are going to have to make some hard decisions,” said Payson Ranger District head ranger Ed Armenta. “We have people on opposite ends of the spectrum.”

The middle section of Fossil Creek, between the waterfall and Purple Mountain, will likely have the most restrictions.

Planners propose placing a staging area either in Strawberry or east of the Fossil Springs trailhead during the summer. Here, visitors would unload from their vehicles and take a shuttle to one of eight proposed river stops.

A shuttle would eliminate vehicles near the creek and allow more visitors the opportunity to visit.

Currently, when the 100 or so parking spots near the creek are filled, visitors are forced to either block the roadway or turn around and go home.

When they choose to leave their vehicle in the road, it stops anyone from coming in or out, including emergency personnel, Titre said.

During Labor Day weekend, Titre said he witnessed a chaotic scene of vehicles stacked on either side of the roadway with only a few feet in some spots to pass.

“I was alarmed,” he said. If someone had got hurt, there would have been no way to get him or her out.”

However, when visitors choose to turn around, they leave with a sour taste in their mouth, said John Stanton, manager of the Rim Country Chamber of Commerce.

“When they drive down there and can’t park, they are mad,” Stanton said.

“If we have control and they know they can at least get down there on a shuttle, they will not be mad.”

For Pine-Strawberry business owners who rely on Valley visitors in the summer, attracting more visitors is a plus.

However, Cindy Maack, owner of Ponderosa Market, said she is worried restrictions will drive visitors away.

“I am opposed to closing the road,” she said, “and I could get 500 signatures by the end of the month of people who oppose it as well.”

While Maack said she is all for cleaning up the area and adding restrooms, she wishes the Forest Service would limit vehicle size instead of starting a shuttle service.

Armenta said he had a tough time accepting the shuttle idea at first, but with limited parking spaces, he doesn’t see a better alternative.

Humphrey suggested that the shuttle service run during summer weekends and holidays, with weekday access unlimited.

Maack said she would support that idea.

“The feasibility of a shuttle remains the big question,” Titre said.

Funding for the plan would also take “a chunk of change,” Armenta said.

Federal grants are available and the program would be implemented in phases, Titre said.

The first part of the plan would include installing an entry gate to control access, limiting use to day only, making the campfire ban permanent and installing composting toilets.

Phase two would be construction of shuttle stops.

Construction won’t start until a final plan is approved, which could take until 2012.

“We will get sued over this one way or another,” Armenta said.

The Forest Service will hold a second public meeting at the Payson Public Library sometime in early April. No official time or date has been set.

[Tough_Boots]

My two solutions for Fossil:

1. Improve the road, build a larger parking lot with the improvements, and charge use and parking fees. Pay some local high school stoners to drag out trash on the weekends. Let the yahoos have it so they don't find the other good places.

2. Close the road permanently. Build a new trailhead and trail somewhere out of the way and make it a mandatory 15 mile hike just to get there.

[paulhubbard]

"“When they drive down there and can’t park, they are mad,” Stanton said.

What about the people who drive all the way, some times from other states, to Slide Rock in Oak Creek only to find it's full and they can't park and explore? Wah, wah, I say! Limited (and enforced) parking automatically limits human impact. Allow a couple of tow truck operators to wait in line and let people know if they park in restricted areas they WILL be towed and fined. Place signs at the top of the road advising of the possibility of no available parking.

[kingsnake]

The early snowbird gets the slick rock.