Missing hiker in Mazatzals - gpsjoe (Joe Domin)

[Dschur]

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If you go out, please track your hike on a GPS and post it for the benefit of future searches. Simply post it upon return. (if you need help ask the webmaster) Hike Arizona will see that it gets linked to a master map. If you have multiple variations in your group, please post all tracks. As more info is posted the map will evolve and the overlaps will be removed.

Searched Routes

Southern Ravines Map

Forecast Mormon Grove & Peeley

Crews looking for missing hiker
By Alexis Bechman

November 16, 2010
Tonto Rim Search and Rescue volunteers and Gila County Sheriff officers are currently searching for an overdue hiker.

The man, whose name has not been released, was last heard from nine days ago and is believed to be hiking near the Mt. Peeley trail or Sheep Mountain, off Forest Road 201, southwest of Payson.

The Gila County Sheriff’s Office first received a call that the man was overdue Monday, Nov. 15 about 9 p.m.

“The hiker has not been heard from since Nov. 7 and frequents the Mazatzal Mountain Wilderness area,” according to a press release from the sheriff’s office.

The missing hiker’s vehicle was located at the Mt. Peeley trailhead.



Six TRSAR volunteers are currently searching the ground. Earlier Tuesday, a Department of Public Safety Ranger helicopter did an aerial search of the area, but found no signs of the man

[sneakySASQUATCH]

@ Snakemarks -It has a limited range is not designed for this purpose which is probably why it is not used.
@Joe- I agree that searching ground that has not been covered is the best way to find him and I don't think this would be any kind of substitute, but something like this might help searchers see farther than the 10' visibility everyone is reporting in the brush.
@Tough Boots- I found that I was getting background noise from the rock itself (Mt. Hood) which I could differentiate from tranceivers, but what made me think of this was that I had to get people to clear the area because I was getting interference from the other instructors and students. When I was walking and scanning before pointing it at the ground I was picking up all of the metal ie. skis, snowshoes, and poles in a pretty wide area. Like I said it may not be viable, but I'm sure someone knows someone who knows much more about the capabilities. It certainly wasn't designed for this, but it helped us locate some expensive equipment with no surface clues. The model I rented cost about $40/ a day and was smaller than the one on your link, but looked similar. It had a box and a wand. The display was on the box and consisted of a needle that jumped as the pitch, frequency, and sound increased indicating a return. It just detected metal. I think some also pick up current etc. to identify underground cables which wouldn't help.
@Cannondale Kid- I believe the link you provided is for a line and metal pipe detector. The system as I mentioned above in response to tough_boots was very simple and basic. I threw this out there because maybe someone else has more experience with this type of thing. I have been reading about the difficulties etc. mainly visibility in the brush. With the gain turned up I was picking stuff up when I pointed it a certain direction of at least 30+ feet which is why I had to get everyone out of the search area. I knew nothing about these things when it was suggested to me for the purpose I needed and it worked. Obviously, this situation and conditions are much different and as I said before may or may not be useful. I was hoping to initiate some conversation and someone with far superior knowledge or experience with this type of equipment could chime in.
I just got back from a deepwater EMS run and haven't had much chance to find either the place I rented it at in Oregon or the actual model. Preliminarily, I found some of the same links as you guys, but got called away after typing the original comment. I did not have the opportunity to look into the specifics. As I stated above it was very simple and basic just detecting returns of metal (somehow?), but more powerful than a basic metal detector. Maybe someone that knows about metal detectors.

[Vaporman]

There must be someone on HAZ who works construction or contracting that might know more about this stuff.

I work in the Irrigation Industry and we rent one for $50/day and we call them wire locators for finding valves wire & detecting breaks. I suppose I could borrow it on the weekends but I never actually used it before, just rented it out a few times... ;)

It's a Greenlee 521A wire & valve locator

[chumley]

GPSjoe always did hike with two Leki metal hiking poles (ie, two pipes ;) ).

Are hiking poles actually metal? Graphite or carbon fiber, etc. might not return much of a signal?

[BobP]

@chumley
From Leki website...Trekking poles...7075 Aircraft-grade Aluminum, tempered at the factory

[oldguy]

I've been following this search since 17 November, trying to figure out what Joe most likely would have done based on his previous gps traces, gps plans and comments.I went out the ridge on Sunday
19 December to see what it was like. When I reached Joe's closest point to Sheep Mountain (27 April attempt), the ridge leading on to Sheep Mt. looked so bad that I was about to give up, but continued
on knowing that a way had been forced through by other searches. Following the broken brush it was not too bad making it to the summit.When Joe was there in April he probably came to the same conclusion
and resigned himself to finding another way. His proposed plan of 19 October was the result. When he tried this on 5 November, the slow going and dangerous terrain probably convinced him not to try this again.
When I went out there on Sunday it was very easy to walk out to peak 6910 and not just because of previous traffic. The brush is low enough and sparse enough that progress was fairly fast. Joe had been this way
3 times already and knew this. The northwest slope is covered with trees and is riven with deer and elk trails that come up from below. Progress anywhere on this slope is easy under these trees where there is
hardly any brush.On 8 November I think Joe used the ridge to hike out to peak 6910, then descended the slope several hundred feet to his 19 October "last chance" gps plan.From there he continued west into the
drainage just north of Sheep Mountain with the intent of either gaining the northwest ridge of Sheep Mountain (bad plan as it's very brushy) or going up under the trees that cover the ravine directly northeast
of Sheep Mountain. This ravine is a bit steep but has minimal brush under the trees. Somewhere down there something happened, probably a fall. This would also explain the mystery of why there was no cell phone
call as the terrain would block coverage from Mt. Ord or Scottsdale. I can see several searchers came up through some of this area in the past few weeks but finding someone in this terrain with limited views is
a matter of luck. The real winter weather may finally be upon us this week and will delay things for who knows how long but I think this area deserves a careful search.

[CannondaleKid]

RE: Metal locators for use in our search

With some more in-depth information that may side track us away from this search thread, I thought a metal locating thread could stand on it's own so I started a Metal locators thread under Gear. >>viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5741

@oldguy Did you have a GPS with you on Sunday? If so, can you upload the track to HAZ so we can add it to our covered areas? Thanks!

@oldguy RE: Cell phone signals from Mt Ord and/or Scottsdale
I would hesitate to recommend limiting any part of the search area by whether or not any particular brand/provider of cell phone may have had a usable signal.

1. If someone is incapacitated for any reason that precludes the ability to physically operate the phone, as in not able to get their phone out of their pack if not immediately at hand due to broken limbs, etc., or for any reason are simply unable to use their phone, whether there is a signal or not is not a factor. (Unfortunately in this worst-case scenario, even a SAT or SPOT wouldn't help.)

2. Even on top of Sheep Mountain summit on Monday, I could only get a signal if I held my phone within a very small range to grab a signal from what I have to assume is Scottsdale. Also, when Liz let me try using her phone (before I found a spot with signal for mine) because she had a signal. But after two attempts of losing the signal before completing the call, it appeared it may be as simple as my body between the tower and the phone was enough to lose a weak signal.

3. If we are to limit or change priority of search areas due to likelihood of cell signal or not, all the possible fall areas with some distance to fall along the trail on the east side would likely have no service either. Only once have I had service at the trail head, but I did not when there Monday with Liz.

One way or another, best course is to continue putting more tracks on the ground. It almost goes without saying, but it would be great if we every attempt to have a GPS when going into previously uncovered areas, even if you have to borrow one. And further, so we can color in the newly covered areas, please post the resulting tracks here on HAZ.

[BobP]

Mr. Domin could be outside of your probable search area. The probability is low, but it does exist. In reality, you could search an area and be standing right next to, or on top of, a clue and never know it. If you continued, you would think that you have searched an area and that the clue is not there

I increased the size of clue: because to date I don't think anyone has found one. Smells may or may not of been clues. But there haven't been any concrete clues like finding something that was definitely his. So, basically nothing can be ruled out. A gps track can show an area has been searched but until a clue is found nothing has been totally searched.

[juliachaos]

until a clue is found nothing has been totally searched

So true. When Joe found that black hat, I was standing right next to it but didn't see it until a minute or two later. If he hadn't pointed it out, I wouldn't have seen it at all. Most clues are going to be extremely difficult to pick up on, and it's entirely possible that there are undiscovered clues where several people have searched already. It's hard sometimes to even remember to keep looking around, when you've been out there for hours and have grown tired or hungry. Nothing can be ruled out for certain, even if an area has been walked several times over.

[CannondaleKid]

So, basically nothing can be ruled out. A gps track can show an area has been searched but until a clue is found nothing has been totally searched.

Absolutely correct!
Even if a clue is found it doesn't mean the area has been covered, it simply means we would have a clue that we may be close to other clues as well.

Even if we had level ground, thinner vegetation, and a dozen searchers walking within 10' of each other in a consistent search pattern, it's still possible to come up blank. Add back in the uneven terrain and thick vegetation we are dealing with and we could be as Liz said, mere feet away and miss something very relevant.

[Grasshopper]

by oldguy » Dec 22 2010 7:35 am
I've been following this search since 17 November, trying to figure out what Joe most likely would have done based on his previous gps traces, gps plans and comments.I went out the ridge on Sunday 19 December to see what it was like...

Art, thank you for your above analysis and new ideas for consideration in our ongoing search for GPSjoe. I want to encourage everyone to do the same as you have done and post on this forum thread so that all who are following our search efforts will have the opportunity to brainstorm those ideas here for others to consider and comment on. We still have a significant amount of now identified "search areas for consideration" (ref: Home Page links for Grids A-F and G-J), needing our search commitment effort, but all new ideas are welcome!

I tried to follow your detailed analysis above regarding a possible new route in by GPSjoe on his last Mon-11/8 attempt, but I got lost. I do believe a visual topo map with a drawn-in route as you propose would help significantly in understanding how you think GPSjoe might have exited the ridgeline around Peak 6910. Thanks to Joe B., HAZ now has an excellent new map tool to help do this. Locate from the Home Page-->TrailDEX Map-->Route Mgr-->Start New Route...

But to speed things up a bit for you, I am linking here for your reference and further edit the official GPS- Ridgeline Default Route.. http://hikearizona.com/location_g.php?QX=269 which you can further edit with your new to be added GPS Track that you would draw-in from where you choose around Peak 6910 to show the proposed route you think GPSjoe would have taken off the ridgeline to gain Sheep Mtn Summit. Note: To start your edit of this new track, go to the left top of the map page and click on the kind of "Z" figure next to the yellow box. You will make some mistakes learning the process here, but it is fairly user friendly. When your new track is completed, then you name it and save it and in the saving process be sure to change the save status from "Private" to "Public". After saving it, then go up to the very upper right of the map page and you will see a small "Link" option with black background color, click on this and when the small window opens, then left click on the link to highlight the complete link, then right click with your mouse and copy. Now your new proposed route map can be linked with the "paste" option here in our forum thread for all to see exactly what you are proposing. It is a pretty slick new HAZ map enhancement to use once you get the hang of working in it.

[SuperstitionGuy]

Art, thank you for your above analysis and new ideas for consideration in our ongoing search for GPSjoe. I want to encourage everyone to do the same as you have done and post on this forum thread so that all who are following our search efforts will have the opportunity to brainstorm those ideas here for others to consider and comment on.

Here is a thought I have had for sometime regarding what GPSjoe may have done just prior to whatever the problem was that brought him down. From time to time every hiker needs a lengthy rest room break. I prefer to get well off trail out of sight and sound of others and even prefer a site with a view if the weather is cooperating. While looking for this ideal spot I focus on what I am looking for and am a little careless not paying to much attention to where I am stepping, climbing, bushwacking, etc. Perhaps he fell, broke a leg, got knocked on the head, etc., etc., while searching for the ideal spot to meet his needs.

Therefore for those of you that have hiked with him what were his habits in preparing for a such a rest room break? Uphill, downhill, how far away from the trail, under cover or out in the open but yet out of sight? I am assuming there is no rest room at the trailhead where he parked his vehicle so has he in the past always relieved himself just prior to finishing a hike but before he got back to the trailhead or would he have looked for a spot near the trailhead just prior to heading home in his vehicle?

And to what extent has the area around where he parked his vehicle been searched?

[Grasshopper]

My comments in bold:
(I believe you are asking me to comment on my hiking partners latrine habits, hope it helps ;) )

Art, thank you for your above analysis and new ideas for consideration in our ongoing search for GPSjoe. I want to encourage everyone to do the same as you have done and post on this forum thread so that all who are following our search efforts will have the opportunity to brainstorm those ideas here for others to consider and comment on.

Here is a thought I have had for sometime regarding what GPSjoe may have done just prior to whatever the problem was that brought him down. From time to time every hiker needs a lengthy rest room break. I prefer to get well off trail out of sight and sound of others and even prefer a site with a view if the weather is cooperating. While looking for this ideal spot I focus on what I am looking for and am a little careless not paying to much attention to where I am stepping, climbing, bushwacking, etc. Perhaps he fell, broke a leg, got knocked on the head, etc., etc., while searching for the ideal spot to meet his needs. I never had the impression that Joe was ever looking for the ideal spot, he was just looking to get on with the program at hand and back to hiking ASAP.

Therefore for those of you that have hiked with him what were his habits in preparing for a such a rest room break? Uphill, no, probably not downhill, most likely or either stop at a flat trail location for an off trail how far away from the trail, under cover or out in the open but yet out of sight? most likely I am assuming there is no rest room at the trailhead where he parked his vehicle so has he in the past always relieved himself just prior to finishing a hike but before he got back to the trailhead no pattern or would he have looked for a spot near the trailhead just prior to heading home in his vehicle? no pattern

And to what extent has the area around where he parked his vehicle been searched?
I remember HAZ- "thebrayer" posting on the forum many pages back regarding a trip and search hike he did around the circumference area of the Peeley TH.
Not sure if any others have.

[SUN_HIKER]

what were his habits in preparing for a such a rest room break? Uphill, downhill, how far away from the trail, under cover or out in the open but yet out of sight?

I agree with Hank. Also, up there where Joe was hiking is not a place one needs to be concerned over lot's of traffic. Like Hank said, Joe would not have searched for a discreet spot.

Everyone I'm sure is thinking of the thousand scenarios that could have played out. Unfortunately it will remain a mystery even when we find Joe, I'm not sure it can be determined what really happened.

[Grasshopper]

A copy and paste from the "Metal locators" thread-

by CannondaleKid » Dec 23 2010 5:34 am

Jim Lyding wrote:A better option to find something that's not on the trail would be the view from a helicopter. I'm not sure if that's already happened...


Yes, SAR had a helicopter in the early days of the search. I have no idea how many chopper search flights were done, but I know Gabriele spent some time up in the air searching. She mentioned to me that it was not an easy task. Not being able to look straight down you must look at some angle less than 90 degrees, and as that angle gets smaller any open areas surrounded by vegetation (esp. trees) are quickly blocked from view. So unless something like constant vertical hi-res filming (and someone to watch it all very carefully after the fact) and flying back and forth in a narrow grid pattern, over and over as well as from as many angles as possible, one simply could not say the area had been "searched thoroughly."

Jim Lyding wrote:Has any group done a "sweep" search where a group of people walk through an area only a few feet apart?


By superimposing all the search tracks currently posted on HAZ in one view, simply put, no. While some very small areas (the Peeley summit?) may very well have been covered that way, probably 99.9% of the search area has not.

Jim Lyding wrote:I know firsthand how difficult the terrain is in the area, but that may be the best way to cover a particular area.


As difficult as it might be, you are correct, the most effective search is conducted in sweeps with as many individuals as possible spaced as closely as practical which, in this terrain is nigh on impossible. But as long as we have a number of people still in this, willing to keep on, just because it's against all odds should not stop us from trying.

[CannondaleKid]

My gf has to work Christmas Day and the Mt Peeley forecast for Saturday looks to be the best day through Monday, so what better thing for me to do but head out early for another day of searching.

If anyone is interested in joining in, PM me and we can work out the details.
Thanks!

[Dschur]

I can see some snow on the Mazatzals from Payson.. Hard to say how much with the clouds hanging on them... the rim has snow all the way down but not much... We had lots of rain here in Payson in the past few days I think over an inch but not sure exactly... So do not know the condition of the road up there...

[CannondaleKid]

Unless there's hard rain early Saturday I'm willing to make the trip up. If it's passable, great! If not, oh well, we tried.

[beckett]

My gf has to work Christmas Day and the Mt Peeley forecast for Saturday looks to be the best day through Monday, so what better thing for me to do but head out early for another day of searching.

If anyone is interested in joining in, PM me and we can work out the details.
Thanks!

Maybe a Christmas miracle?

[CannondaleKid]

My gf has to work Christmas Day and the Mt Peeley forecast for Saturday looks to be the best day through Monday, so what better thing for me to do but head out early for another day of searching.

Maybe a Christmas miracle?

What?? The miracle my gf having to work and not be forced into a long hike??

No, seriously...

SUN_HIKER and I (she's searching tomorrow as well) both share the same hopes for a Christmas miracle...
That Joe could be home for Christmas.

Yes, the odds are astronomical (like the star in the east???) but I'll definitely be praying for that miracle throughout our search and will welcome the thoughts & prayers from any and all.

[oldguy]

Went up to Peeley trailhead today; very little mud and
it's drying out fast.